Guenevere (WIP)

whoops, I haven’t been back in a while and I’m sad I missed all this discussion. :stuck_out_tongue: Now I’m really interested in thinking about a lot of stuff.

MORDRED. I’m wondering, from what’s being said, I’m guessing Guen will not guess the choice to raise him as her own like in some versions (ala Persia Woolley’s The Guinevere Trilogy?).

Ahhh, I love Mordred. He’s quite possibly my favorite Arthurian dude- and that’s saying a lot, since I love Arthur and Lancelot a ton. I’d never be able to romance him, though, ahaha- I’m extremely fond of him because he’s such a little shit and SUCH a teenager. Usually a pawn, sometimes magically powerful, has some good manipulative plans but is usually too cowardly/unable to control them once he forces them in motion. I like his ‘sort of a failed evil royal and kind of crybaby’ interpretations the most- T.H. White’s (omg, his evil black lapdog pug and his constant crying when people make fun of him!) and Mists of Avalon (omg, getting manipulated by ladies and also screaming and crying a lot) are my favorites.

It’s just. like. He’s not a GOOD person, but he’s affable enough that you kind of end up loving him. He’s a little shit who I love, basically. I want to give him a noogie and a ‘You tried. You tried so hard.’ sticker. He’s so ridic. I LOVE YOU MORDRED BBY.

Also, can I put in a request that if you choose a route where you romance Morgana and don’t like Mordred, if we can at least get a crack! insult of ‘I did your mom.’ Just. For the fun of it. I’d just die.

(Oh god, now I’m imagining the scene in GoT where Cersei backhands Joffrey. That’s a good summation of what I feel about Guinevere and Mordred in Arthurian literature in cases where she doesn’t raise him. Pretty much just a ‘Son, PLEASE.’ sort of thing.)

Re: ‘I did your mom’: You MIGHT be able to say that about BOTH of his parents. :stuck_out_tongue:

That remembers me one of best banters in DA2 Isabella ,Anders and Fenris you have to have sex with the 3
Isabella says something like why are you looking at Hawke like I did with her too … " Priceless.

@OtherGrimm HA. Yes. “Yeah, kid, we really keep it in the family around here. I guess.”

@MaraJade One of my favorite Isabela lines! What a queen.

@jeantown: The first meeting with Lancelot, she has to be at least polite to the guy; the worst she can do is “I’m honored to meet you, but would you be willing to wait outside until Morgana gets back? Speaking of scandals, I don’t think it would be a very good idea for me to be found alone with a man when the ladies of the court arrive.”

Given that Lancelot just made a playful and familiar comment to someone who’s about to be his queen, I think she needs to be able to give him a cold, cutting remark and put that boy-knight in his place. Arthur may not care that Lance wouldn’t know formality if it bit him, but Guen should be able to (try to) set him back on his ass.

Other than that, antisocial Guen is antisocial enough.

Also, regarding the Arthur wedding night scene, the two possibilities involve passionate kissing and passionate sex, and Arthur and Guen not having sex. I was struck with the idea that it should be possible for a mature and responsible Guen who isn’t interested in Arthur to try to insist on sex despite the fact that she won’t enjoy it.

@Ramidel yes you can choose have sex with him even doesnt like him. i always do it , choosing that i choose i get sex with him to manipule him better

@jeantown I didn’t think the forced dialogue came off as too nice, especially since I pictured her saying all of her dialogue as bitchily as possible. I think antisocial Guen is so awful it actually ends up being kind of endearing.

Also, is Mordred someone Guen is actually going to be able to romance?

Also I agree with Ramidel. I think it would be nice to have a “lie back and think of England” sort of option for the wedding night with Arthur.

You would romance Mordred in future. And you already could choose sex and be friendly Arthur to be good wife and for kindom.

@MaraJade: Yes, but you have passionate sex with him if you’re manipulating him, or at least sex that appears passionate (even if your version of Guen is actually doing her shopping list in her head while faking an orgasm). It’s not quite the same thing as passionless, dutiful sex because Britain needs an heir and it’s the queen’s duty to provide.

It doesn’t feel right that a dutiful-but-uninterested wife’s sex is like something out of a bodice-ripper.

@Ramidel I kind of find the idea that having sex against her will being ‘responsible and mature’ kind of bothersome- doing what she wants with her body is just as mature and responsible, you know?

But she DOES get the ‘lie back’ option- when you get back from the fireworks and at least two other times, she can agree to sex even if she doesn’t desire to just because of getting it over with/because she feels she should/has to, etc.

Actually, though, this brings up thoughts I had about celibate Guen. Basically that I find it really interesting.

I just recently played non-having-sex-with-Arthur for the first time (and a couple times after), mostly because I never played any Guens who wouldn’t for whatever reason. But, I figured since I’m celibate myself, lol, might as well do so.

It gave me more of a different view of Arthur. I still love him, and think he’s great, but the whole naivety and obliviousness being a big problem and Morgana’s ‘He should have something go wrong for him for once.’ I agreed with these things before, of course- and even though I still wouldn’t harden him, this is the first time it got on my nerves rather than endear him to me.

For example, the line he says when you pick the ‘That means you won’t need an heir, right?’ option. It seemed reasonable enough- ‘I’ll try to make sure we won’t need to’- and I rolled my eyes at ‘We should have one anyway to be sure,’ but I figured, lol, Mordred, so that point is moot anyway.

Butttt when you’re also celibate, he grinds my gears a little more. I’m playing a responsible good Guen who romantically loves only Arthur, but is staying celibate.

On one hand, he did good by being respectful. But the whole tent conversation was really shitty. I get why, but it was pretty douche-y to go ‘I know you said to wait, but we have to have this conversation after only a week to REMIND you that we HAVE to have sex and we HAVE to produce a kid and I HAVE to stay on the front lines.’

Mostly because:

  1. Arthur hasn’t even Guen straight out if she ever plans on having sex, period. Of any characters she talks to about it, he’s the one she doesn’t get the option to say ‘I’m not ready right now.’ so he actually doesn’t know what she straight up thinks. Again, most people don’t assume someone would never have sex ever, BUT he does know she didn’t get to choose to marry him, and plenty of forced marriages lead one partner to never wanting sex with them.

  2. Arthur talks about dissolving the monarchy and all this big, rather progressive stuff- but he feels biological heirs is an absolute necessity, when there are plenty kingdoms/empires that have been around- and surely around medieval times- where monarchy is decided by someone choosing the next in line or the next most powerful person in the kingdom, not through biological lines. Again, though, this will be moot because of Mordred so the need for a blood heir isn’t an issue.

I’m not saying any of these things is wrong- I think they make sense, since Arthur kind of is insensitive to Guen at times, and he is used to things happening the way he wants, so why wouldn’t his good wife who loves/likes him to want to have sex with him eventually?

It just gave me a new perspective/see more what Morgana talked about more, I found it really interesting, and wonder a lot of how this could come out, since you said he wouldn’t divorce her, and I highly doubt if Guen offered a ‘Well, you can get sex from other women, I don’t mind!’ solution he’d accept, so that, especially for the fact I want Guen to love him, should be fascinating to see.

(Also, I AM SO SORRY ALL MY COMMENTS ARE ALWAYS SUPER LONG I’M VERY CHATTY THIS IS RIDICULOUS.)

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@Ramidel We women are really good faking or at least that is what hollywood says :wink:

I didn’t found it weird due my Guen tries to fool Hippie and sex is a good powerful way to manipulate like real history shows in lot of cases. But you got right a dutiful wife could accept it like a consent duty and even don’t fake any pleasure. In this case a Guen saying Hippie “I don’t like you and all but i queen now and i know my place and duties. But dont expected hugs and love from my part there are tons of women in the court for that”

Hmm i always wondered why some ppl here (well maybe except for Mara character) are so excited about Mordred. I mean i’ve never read or watch to much of Arthurian legends interpretations, but from what i vaguely remember he was portrayed as some psychotic, self-centered guy (certainly not someone capable of falling in love for anyone than himself, even for other “evil” person), who was angry like a teenager at others for not letting him be the king and willing to destroy whole country for it. And never seen him portrayed as anyone handsome. But i guess it’s more to this character than that maybe in those stories @thesunfloweramazon mentioned.
Maybe i’ll get myself and try to play mean/antisocial Guen to see how @jeantown portrayed him in that dream but i dont know if i manage to be so bad to my Arthur for to long time :slight_smile:
@Ramidel That’s my favorite answer at their meeting. Also i dont think it’s to out of the character for evil Guen, she knows that Lance is Arthur’s best friend so she would try to be polite as much as she can to him in order to manipulate king later, but maybe it’s more like an option for poison queen than for evil/antisocial one…

I look forward to the future. My Guenevere has a strong platonic friendship with Morgana. She has been moderately kind to Lancelot but only sees him as a friend, no more than that. As for Arthur, she wishes they could just be friends. In others words, she is completely aromantic and asexual. She has no interest in the activity, but she will fulfill it as part of her duties as queen and wife.

She is very ambitious and wants to strive for power and authority, though at the same time, it is tempered by a sense of duty. It will be difficult for her to balance the two, but with her reputation foremost being for intelligence, I am sure she will manage.

@thesunfloweramazon: “I kind of find the idea that having sex against her will being ‘responsible and mature’ kind of bothersome- doing what she wants with her body is just as mature and responsible, you know?”

Yes, just as. Perhaps I should have used the words “responsible and dutiful,” which would have made my point clearer. Assuming Guen cares about Britain at all (granted, she may not), it is somewhat irresponsible to be a medieval queen and not at least try to produce an heir.

@Ponku: Yes, but there’s plenty of chances for Guen to be antisocial (which has nothing to do with being evil), and this would be a perfect place for her to step on Lancelot. He has overstepped his place by being so chatty with his king’s fiancee. I was referring to a hardass queen who isn’t too interested in making friends, not necessarily a MaraJade-approved poison girl.

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@Ponku To be fair, my knowledge of Arthurian legend pretty much comes from fuzzy childhood memories of The Sword and the Stone and Quest for Camelot, so I’m entirely going off what’s presented here, but to me dream!Mordred cam off as hot neutral evil guy (which may or may not be correct), and that’s kind of my type so far as fictional guys go :slight_smile:

@MaraJade i love to use the nicknames you came up with and they are so useful :smiley: Haha what can i say i adore to break haha and i agree with you Mara on the execut Barbie part oh how i would love the chance for that. (First break his heart then kill him muhahahah :-)) )
But i dont like the idé of Mondred as a vampire that would just put me off…

@Ponku well as a Mondred fan girl i can personally say that its his darkness and hatred that draws me to him because he is messed up in a tradegy way but that doesnt mean that i dont think that he really cant ove thats for @jeantown to decide… but i am expecting passionet love from him. And him being utterly handsome just makes me love him more!!! i mean black hair and silver eyes :x
but also i love him because i love characters that People love to hate. And that he is seen as the bad one when a lot from the start was Arthurs fault. And i support Mondred because he is the true heir to the throne no matter what. :">

@Ramidel True! But then again, there are lots of ways to get a heir- there have been instances where divorce or killing the queen wasn’t an option, so people faked pregnancy and passed off an adopted (or stolen…) baby as their own. Also, with medieval gynecology being what it was, that’s certainly a plus, lol.

@Ponku Well, ahaha, those are the reasons I like him! He’s an angry, irrational, rather over-dramatic teenager. Annoying and evil, but endearing imo. Although, if we’re talking a version where Arthur tried to drown him as a baby, I suppose he DOES have a point to hate everyone in Camelot. Though I don’t think that would make him a good king, ahaha.

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@GloriaRose I got a weakness from hot evil vampires since Brad Pitt in Interview with vampire I hate twilight good vampires but Blade Vampire diaries True blood … So a fae vampire could do but i agree dont goes with setting .

I like the attitude of Mordred his hatred against a horrible life and a kindom made by bullshit fake good will a king that bang his sister a supposedly knight that seduce his best friend wife and have sex during years so many talk about equallity but maintaining a iron claw feudalism over peasantry and keeping nobility by born . The rest is pure propaganda. So Mordred at least is sincere and have reasons to hate a daddy who didnt have bravery to acept it like son.

aaaaaaaaaa oh my thread explosion… I’ll try to respond to as much as I can, but apologies if I don’t hit all of everyone’s points… It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate all of them!

First off, I was already working on a few more little tweaks to part 1, and I just uploaded them. They are VERY small – not worth replaying the whole game for. After hearing some good thoughts from @Ponku, I tweaked the text you get if Guen touches Lancelot but still wants to be faithful to Arthur. If she has sex with Arthur before the second day of the battle, she can choose an option like “I don’t care what that was with Lancelot; Arthur’s more important” instead of just thinking that she’ll never respond to Arthur like she does to Lancelot. A Guen who kisses Lancelot but says at the end that she just wants to manipulate him will now get a bit of text commenting on the physical reaction to touching him. And then, just now, thanks to @Ramidel’s great suggestions, I added a more aggressive line telling Lancelot to get out of the dressing pavilion, and a “no point putting this off” lead-in to the first opportunity for sex with Arthur. @Marjade is right that the old version wasn’t meant to imply that Guen was enjoying herself too much if she wasn’t, but I think the new lead-in choice adds some good variation. Many thanks, @Ramidel! :smiley:

@Gadriel and @thesunfloweramazon I am really struggling with how to enable a cohesive asexual and/or aromantic path. I’m determined to make it work to the best of my ability, but it’s tricky with a pseudo-historical world where sexual identity terms seem jarringly anachronistic. (I replaced the term “lesbian” with “of the Sapphic persuasion” for that reason.) I tried to create a dialogue option where Guen could explain to Morgana that she’s asexual, without actually using the term asexual, and it turned into a ginormous mess that was way more than the game could support – in real life that can be a big, complicated conversation, and I don’t want to trivialize it. (Same thing happened when I tried to make it so Guen could tell Arthur she’s a lesbian… his inability to understand how two women could have sex was rather fun to write, but then it all got way too complicated.) So I’m going to try to keep things mostly unlabeled, and just have paths in which Guen can simply not have sex, or not want sex, and/or romance. As the game develops, I’d love to hear any thoughts you might have on that.

@thesunfloweramazon I will NEVER mind loads of text! Thank you for all of your thoughts. I think a lot of people have read Arthur as charmingly sweet and innocent and puppyish, and he is all of those things, but he’s also an extraordinarily privileged seventeen-year-old who’s so caught up in his own savior-complex that he can’t see how hypocritical he is. He wants to bring an end to violence, but he loves thinking and talking about battles (unless he loses). As you say, he thinks he’s going to end the monarchy, but it never once occurs to him that he might not get married and have an heir. It would never occur to him in a million years that Guen might not ever want to have sex with him… and if Lancelot hadn’t warned him that she might need some time, he would have been way beyond confused if she didn’t immediately jump into his arms the first second they were alone. Because who wouldn’t want to help him save the world by being the most wonderfulest babymaking queen ever? Of course, Arthur isn’t stupid, and he genuinely wants to be a good person. Given time and perspective, he could change.

Part of the reason Arthur can’t think outside of a blood heir is that that’s exactly how he came to be king. His Pendragon blood is literally the only reason Arthur was accepted as king by anyone – in this version, it’s what enabled him to pull the sword from the stone (more on that in later books). But yes, if a blood heir doesn’t appear (or, at least, a blood heir he feels he can acknowledge), he’ll have entertain some alternative ideas.

Which brings me to Mordred… :slight_smile: First off, I should say that no, there are no vampires in this game – sorry. (There are vampires in my New Arcana novels, though. *cough*shamelessplug*cough*) @ricepatrick182, the dreams are just super-short sequences you get if Guen doesn’t talk to anyone at night. @Dolphinzgirl I was being cagey about it for awhile, but somehow I ended up admitting that yes, there will be a possible Mordred romance, though it won’t be as long-term as the others since he’ll only be an adult in the last two books.

As in the dreams, Mordred (as an adult) will be cocky and full of himself but not Joffrey-level sadistic. Neutral Evil indeed. He’ll have too much power for his own good. If all goes according to plan (a big if), there will be a clear reason why he has the magic powers he does, and even why his eyes are that color. @OtherGrimm It would be unlike me not to take advantage of the potential irony in Guen having slept with either or both of Mordred’s parents, not to mention a few other similar circumstances that may arise. :slight_smile: In any case, Mordred will indeed resent Arthur (@MaraJade), feel that he is the rightful heir, and most likely call Arthur out on some of his hypocrisy.

Ugh, I wish these books would write themselves faster! :slight_smile:

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First of all thank you all for your answers about Mordred. The main reason why i cant imagined him as a love interest was that i’ve pictured him more as “Joffrey-level sadistic” (thanks for the term @jeantown :). But there are so many different Arthurian legends that his character can be interpreted in so many ways, and i totally understand how some of them can make him a likeable character. And i’m glad that he will be more like “neutral evil” here, so maybe i wont dislike him to much but i highly doubt i’ll leave my Arthur :slight_smile:

About Arthur’s ideals, that is one of the things i like in his route so much, that he is so idealistic he have a vague goal in his life and it would be my way to help him to confront his ideals with the real world and together find a way to make them work.

Also i don’t remember if this was mentioned, but will Guen be able to get pregnant before Mordred is conceived, so he wouldn’t be considered the first heir (i imagine if he is conceived later he would try to kill Guen’s child)?