@WulfyK If I thought for a moment that “attempt to assassinate Guenevere on her wedding day” Cornellia wasn’t doing that anyway that might actually have some meaning. We have not seen even a whisper of a hint that she isn’t completely determined to do so in the game, before, after, or while making the choice on if Hrothulf is better dead than alive.
And no, Guen can’t. Naturally that means that one would like some glimmer of a suggestion in the game that the pessimists could be wrong at some point about this sort of decision instead of every choice favoring “If you meet a stranger, assume he’s your enemy.”
If it was solely Hrothulf and trusting Grimald and/or Meligaunt didn’t also lead to trouble, I’d be less annoyed. But they make it less “Sometimes trusting others is good, sometimes it is bad.” and more “every time this has come up, it is bad.”. Maybe Tilda is an exception. There’s still time for that to be a yes.
@Elfwine If it’s all about too predictable characters, don’t forget these are just two books out of six. A trustworthy character you’ll meet after four or five books full of treacherous ones will be a greater surprise/twist than one you meet in the first two books.
@WulfyK It’s all about being told repeatedly that the other characters are untrustworthy, that mercy will only be taken a sign of weakness, and that it would be a surprise for anyone to be actually trustworthy whether it occurs in the second half of book 2 or the beginning of book 5.
I don’t have the interest in putting up with humans are bastards for five books just to find out that there’s that a Guen who has made all the right choices for this path might have one extra person speak in her favor about her being faithful (both in bed and in politics) to Arthur in book 5, but in the meanwhile has been betrayed again and again and again and again and again by those she trusts or seen mercy only lead to more harm, more destruction, more misery.
“Humans are fundamentally good.” is boring. “Humans are fundamentally evil.” is no more fun.
@Elfwine but is the predominant alignemnt the only interesting/important aspect of this game for you? And don’t you read/watch/play any other dark stuff?
@WulfyK I read Warhammer 40,000 fiction. Played Dawn of War I and Winter Assault. That ought to establish my tolerance for grimdark in the right place.
Btu this is not the 41st millennium.
I want to play this to deal (as Guen) with a situation where it might be possible for good will to triumph with sufficient savviness and hard work. Also because Oscar of The Royal Trap/Arthur of this game are among the kind of male personalities I find attractive when playing female characters. The two things there go together pretty well actually. But that side is more about my tastes in romance options in games rather than the main plot.
My preference shouldn’t be the only possible way to not end with bad things happening to Guen, especially for Guens whose definition of “a dream come true” wouldn’t end with “and while riding our unicorns in the surf, Arthur and I tell each other terrible puns.”.
If your dream is taking control of Camelot and ruling as the greatest monarch west of Constantinople - or hell, China, let’s dream big - you don’t need any damn unicorns to ride through the surf. Having lots of not-sure-if-necessary blood on your hands won’t feel like you’re failing to achieve that the way it would for the dream about puns and unicorns if you still get the crowns of a dozen kings at your feet.
But unicorn riding should be a possibility if this game is meant as something where good and bad can both work and both fail, and that means that it has to be possible to be good and pragmatic instead of our interactions with Britain’s neighbors being driven by “Do I act as good or as pragmatic?”
Edit:
Put simply, I think that the popular sentiment about what “pragmatic” means, and the outcomes so far, are suggesting that my Guen is facing a choice between the two, rather than the game encouraging me to try to find out how to do both.
@Elfwine I’m sorry the game isn’t giving you what you want. I know how frustrating it can be to see potential for greater depth in someone else’s work, and to feel like the writer isn’t taking advantage of that potential.
Like any game, mine won’t – can’t – be all things to all people. I can guarantee that it won’t have everything everyone wants, and I can guarantee that some people won’t like it, and one of the main reasons some people won’t like it will be because it doesn’t have enough depth in areas where they would like more depth – basically, because it’s not the game they would have written if they were writing this game.
I’ve written about 3/14 of this series so far, and I have a fairly specific idea of where I’m going with the plot and the long-term consequences of choices. I’m extremely grateful for feedback that helps me think about what I’m doing and gives me ideas for doing it better. But in the end, the game is going to be what it’s going to be.
In any case, I look forward to that far-distant day when the whole series is finished, and we can all discuss its shortcomings with a complete picture of what it is (and what it definitively isn’t), instead of having to speculate on the basis of a relatively small portion.
@Mirabella Not as a solution to wanting a good Arthurian/Camelotian game that is not so frustratingly hard and/or unfair that my enthusiasm runs out before the author’s…
Uhh…I see I posted my Guenevere questions at the worst possible time EVER…so I’ll just re-post here.
Yep, I’m going to have a lot of fun with Canon Guen’s drama in Book VI! But I just realized…according to the timeline, Mordred will be 20 in Book VI. I’d imagine that 20 is old enough for Mordred to begin his plots to overthrow Arthur and attempt to get Guen (and her considerable power and influence) on his side.
Up to this point, Canon Guen’s answers can be summed up in “No, no, and HECK NO!” But with her life and possibly her true love’s life in jeopardy, she might view any offer of Mordred’s to save her/them in exchange for joining him an entirely different light…or at the very least be SORELY tempted.
Also, in the actual legend, stories vary on whether Guen willingly assisted Mordred or was forced into it against her will. This combines both versions quite nicely, I think…she’s not exactly forced to do anything, but she certainly will be coerced. (This probably doesn’t matter to anyone else, but the idea of this Guen is to play out my interpretation of the real Arthurian legend.)
So is there any chance of this happening? Pretty please?
Also, is it true that in Book 7 anybody can die (including Arthur, Lance, Morgana, Mordred, and even Guen herself)? Because up till now, I’m pretty sure the main characters have been basically immortal unless I’m missing something, and I thought I heard somewhere back in the thread that the last book would be different.
Though tbh I’m not sure if I can answer your question… I guess the simplest answer I can give is that I don’t think Mordred will be able to offer to save the life of anyone Guen cares about. She may be able to make a deal with Mordred to let Arthur live as long as Mordred gets the throne, and Mordred won’t plan to kill Morgana, but Mordred is going to want Lancelot very very dead. While Guen may be able to mitigate some of that, it would be more in the spirit of bargaining for Lancelot’s life once she’s joined Mordred’s side rather than as part of an initial temptation Mordred would offer. So I’m afraid things may not be able to work out in quite the way you’re imagining; sorry!
Arthur and Mordred can both definitely die in part 7. Lancelot can probably die. I don’t know about Morgana – I don’t know yet exactly what the circumstances of her death would be. Same for Guen; I expect she’ll be able to die, but I don’t know exactly how yet – it will need to fit meaningfully into the plot and there are still a lot of loose ends in my plan for 7.
“Is it possible for a hardened Arthur to still trust and love Guen?”
– yes, absolutely!
“And in the conflict between Arthur and Mordred (one saying people are good, the other saying people suck) are we able to opt in the middle? People are neither good or evil, just people?”
– Guen can absolutely feel that way, but she’ll have to pick a side in the conflict – which may be an even bigger tragedy if she doesn’t agree 100% with the ethos of the side she chooses.
Which makes me wonder how difficult will be for Mordred to gain his trust and actually fall in love with Guen in the process, since as we know, as you said, that he views love as a form of weakness (as I remember…?), and if she succeeds at this, to the being able to catch him off guard and betray him in book 7, how he’ll act, will he actually be to kill her, even IF he loves her? (theoretically speaking, is this going to be possible to happen?)
Would it really be considered a tragedy if you want both sides to lose?
@Elfwine In part 1, when Arthur spares the rebellious lords (which you can have an opinion on iirc but cannot affect), in return he’s warned about the first assassination attempt on Guen. So, in one of the earliest scenes of the game we get a demonstration of the usefulness of mercy and some hints that that usefulness has limitations. Since then, we really just haven’t gotten to see the results of many decisions yet. I suspect that the Frankish queen might be someone worth trusting (and maybe Tilda), but it’s hard to say so early in the story, particularly when the story seems to revolve around long-term consequences.
Guen’s personal relationships, however, seem to benefit immediately from trust, and her relationship with Arthur may be better served by mercy when they reunite in the second half of part 2.
Saying it “has limitations” would be a grievous understatement.
At this point (edit: given the outcomes that have occurred so far), Guen has about as much of a chance of getting something good from being merciful and trusting as from throwing darts at a dart board. Sure, its not impossible for it to work out. It’s just not something I would rely on, whereas the other extreme has, well take these two things:
A blood feud with the Romano-Saxons would be indistinguishable from the actual attempts to kill her they’ve made for a Guen trying to avoid one. There is no such thing as extra-impossible to make peace with.
Same with dealing with Meligaunt or Grimald. Hard to provoke a more dire situation than being kidnapped and Britain invaded by mistrusting someone whose only appealing point right now is that she wants to take Grimald down too, which is entirely independent of any real help she can give Guen for friendship’s sake.
If that’s the game Jean wants to write, that’s her choice. I wish her only the best.
@ballmot
The fact that it’s easier to try to clarify what I wanted to say in text by revising it than it is to change speech (The verbal equivalent would probably turn into mumbling at best).
I don’t want to have players who think differently than I do be punished or silenced and I don’t want to say this is a bad game with a bad story, which it isn’t. But some of the things I write when expressing how annoyed I am by certain things can be read that way.
Better to change the wording of those things, because my typing fingers sometimes outrun my ability to recognize something looks like this when someone else reads it.
Edit: And then there’s just realizing I used the wrong word. I’m fussy about my wording of things.
@buggygirl11 Yeah, it will be veeeerrrry interesting if your Canon Guen loves Lancelot but sides with Mordred. So much drama!
@kitkat I do hope to make it difficult to get Mordred to love Guen for real; only some Guens will be able to do it. But yeah, if that happens and she betrays him… wow, that should be something! I imagine it would confirm all his beliefs that people are terrible, and he’d have no problem killing Guen if he were given the opportunity. (No idea yet if he will have the opportunity; possible Guen deaths still need to be determined.)
@bomsasa If Guen sides against Mordred, she should be able to take over without backstabbing. If she sides with him, she’ll have to betray him if she wants to have sole power. Can she backstab Arthur? Yes. Lancelot? Absolutely, and brutally. Morgana? That would be difficult. Morgana has a kind of sixth sense about things that makes it very difficult to catch her unaware.
As for Guen being a double agent, that would be a lot of fun! I’d like to think I could work that in, but it will be tricky. Part 7 is essentially going to be two games in one, depending on which side Guen chooses, so it’s going to take twice as long to write. I’ll have to wait and see how easy/difficult it would be to allow Guen to cross between sides.
Thanks for reposting!
