I certainly hope so. Not just in regards to all actions having consequences, and all playstyles having their own challenges, but Tilda being an interesting foe (or friend) would be a very good element to deal with just because Jean writes characters worth reading about.
And that comes out best when strong feelings are involved.
False Rape Accusation ?
This now got me into this
I wouldnât necessarily call an optimist Guen naive and stupid. After all, optimistic and pesimmistic Guens could do the same thing but for different reasons.
My Guen doesnât completely trust Tilda or Frankenmarch but she still knows it is necessary to have allies and win the war ( strategically our army is already spread too thin to fight). But an optimist might trust Tilda and peace always being right.
I think it might be a little risky to think Hrothgar coming towards you with a weapon drawn means he just wants a hug; when he surrenders, I doubt he suddenly turned good when he was trying to kill you 2 seconds ago. Hrothgar could turn good if he had a reason later on and Guen didnât kill him, but the only quick dramatic change in character is from a character reveal like if Arthur found out his âlovingâ wife was manipulatin him. This change from good to bad is useful in politics and making allies where the character only pretenfd to be good. It is rare for a character to be good and only pretending to be bad( The only example I can think for this is a boyfriend who is mean in order to get you to breakup with him because he think breaking up with you himself would hurt you when the best thing to do would be for both of you to talk it out. Lanceâs avoidance of you would fit this.)
@Elfwine
I think a ruthless Guen who attacks Lance for his kiss or angered Grimwald could suffer concequences. If my Guen wasnât attracted to Lance, she would forgive him for the kiss because he expressed remorse. If Guen talks to Meliguant about attacking arthur, Meliguant does not express remorse or apologize and he even ( truthfully) insults Guen. These are reasons why I initially distrusted Meliguant, but would forgive another person like Lance for the slight.
@jeantown
Is there only one way to harden Arthur? My Guen would try to be specific in what he needs to completely change ( his too trusting nature and lack of common sence) and what he only needs to tone down ( It is good that he cares about the lives of his wife and sister, but he should have just sent Lance instead of sendy an army or leaving Guen to die while he remarried) .
My hardened arthur should respect Guen ( and her need not to have relations with him) an the country. I wouldnât want him to be a hippocrite seeing as he and his first son were both conceived out of wedlock;so, why would he judge me harshly? My Guen only had a problem with Arthurâs infidelity because she was not told about it first but she doesnât really believe that their married because she didnât say the vows and she respects his need for an heir ( just not one from Guen). But, I would understand if he misinterpreted my clear instructions; heâs not the smartest king.
@Interestedparty Not telling Arthur is as evil or good as you think it is. Iâm sure there are many well-intentioned Guens who truly care about Arthur and the kingdom, and donât tell him in order to avoid causing pain or political turmoil. The consequences of not telling Arthur should be different, depending on circumstances â an unhardened Arthur who loves and trusts Guen is not going to react in the same way, if/when he finds out, as a hardened Arthur who doesnât trust Guen and maybe doesnât get along as well with Lancelot as he used to. So, no, not objectively evil, and wonât be treated as such within the game.
That is likely.
Iâm hoping I can play around with this as a bit of a theme in parts 6 and 7. Arthur believes that humans are inherently good; Mordred believed that theyâre inherently self-protecting and selfish and basically evil. What does Guen believe?
@buggygirl11 Yeah, anyone who thinks the game is too Disneyish will have to account for part 6, which I suspect may be a bit brutal compared to the rest of it. Your Canon Guen should indeed experience much exciting drama!
@Mirabella All good points⌠I guess itâs just going to be a question of what people are willing to believe. part 6 is so far off that Iâm not sure exactly what will affect what; Iâm just sort of building up stuff that ought to factor into the treason accusation. And yeah, there arenât a whole lot of choices in the game for which I personally would say âThis is absolutely evil,â but a false rape accusation is one of them, and Iâll treat it as such.
@Elfwine Itâs going to take time for the consequences of Guenâs choices to play out (just as @buggygirl11 suggets) . I want her choices/behavior to accumulate into something meaningful and consistent first; for example, I want ruthless Guens to make a few major ruthless choices before other characters start saying âwow, stay out of her way!â Itâs going to be a long, long story. Consequences will play out slowly. The choice to kill or not kill Hrothulf will have a minor consequence in the second half of part 2, and potentially a major consequence in part 3. People like Radagund, Tilda, and Grimald will take Guenâs reputation into account if Guen tries to make alliances with them. In parts 5 and 6, Guenâs reputation and previous choices will continue to affect what sort of allies she can make and how people respond to attacks against her. So, to go back to your original question, I do think itâs likely that an overly cautious Guen will miss out on some potential advantages, and a ruthlessly pragmatic Guen will of course alienate some people. Basically, all I can say right now is, wait and see! (:
Overall, and with a few exceptions, I try not to think in terms of rewarding or punishing particular behavior. I just think, "Okay, how would X affect Y, and how would that be different from the way Z would affect Y?
Arthurâs âhardnessâ is going to be a raise-able stat, with various opportunities to increase it. You wonât be able to fine-tune it in quite the way youâre describing (thatâs just more detail than I can track if I ever want to finish the game), but you may be able to some conversations with Arthur somewhat along the lines youâre suggesting, and Guen will be able to influence him in different ways as things progress.
Is it possible for a hardened Arthur to still trust and love Guen?
And in the conflict between Arthur and Mordred (one saying people are good, the other saying people suck) are we able to opt in the middle? People are neither good or evil, just people?
@jeantown 
Yep, Iâm going to have a lot of fun with Canon Guenâs drama in Book VI! But I just realizedâŚaccording to the timeline, Mordred will be 20 in Book VI. Iâd imagine that 20 is old enough for Mordred to begin his plots to overthrow Arthur and attempt to get Guen (and her considerable power and influence) on his side.
Up to this point, Canon Guenâs answers can be summed up in âNo, no, and HECK NO!â But with her life and possibly her true loveâs life in jeopardy, she might view any offer of Mordredâs to save her/them in exchange for joining him an entirely different lightâŚor at the very least be SORELY tempted.
Also, in the actual legend, stories vary on whether Guen willingly assisted Mordred or was forced into it against her will. This combines both versions quite nicely, I thinkâŚsheâs not exactly forced to do anything, but she certainly will be coerced. (This probably doesnât matter to anyone else, but the idea of this Guen is to play out my interpretation of the real Arthurian legend.)
So is there any chance of this happening? Pretty please? 
Also, is it true that in Book 7 anybody can die (including Arthur, Lance, Morgana, Mordred, and even Guen herself)? Because up till now, Iâm pretty sure the main characters have been basically immortal unless Iâm missing something, and I thought I heard somewhere back in the thread that the last book would be different.
Thanks!
Weâve seen Arthur characterized that way by implication by so many people, but weâve never seen anyone actually that stupid.
And âsuddenly turned goodâ? What? The vast majority of people in (any historical period) were not good. That doesnât mean that treaties were written purely to waste good parchment.
As for Meligaunt - the idea that him being insulting means anything except that he has bad manners is part of why I want to see mistrust cost Guen something at some point if sheâs too mistrustful there. It doesnât actually show anything except that he has bad manners, but the Guens who assume the worst are being treated as if itâs just good sense (even Arthur at worst is not won over, not actively annoyed) as far as reactions go.
Iâm not seeking to punish anyoneâs Guens, simply that if we have consequences for Guens that donât act suspicious enough, that doesnât mean we canât and shouldnât have it go too far - even if the player has no reason (except peeking at the code) to tell this is that time when it looks like other times that its been appropriate.
@Jeantown Well, with a sense of you intending things to come up in later parts, I feel much better. I donât want spoilers necessarily, but it just feels like the drumbeat from the âArthur is far too trusting, Arthur is far too weakâ etc. side is overwhelming at times. There are not many people asking for opportunities to make Morgana more trusting of others, but Arthur being naive comes up in every other message about him.
I donât want to say that should be âpunishedâ per se, simply that the answers (to âhow does Y react to thisâ) there) so far have been âPeople have no problem with the insistence that being pessimistic is being practical, and Guen has no problems from actions done from that.â No one takes offense to it, no friendlies take an arrow through the guts from it, no relationships sour from it. . .
@Elfwine Did you play any playthrough as a jerk Guen? I clearly think not for your posts. If you are nasty with anyone, there are really text that hints jerk Guen would end badly as hell. You could made even army hates you that Lance denies have sex with you, make Arthur miserable and probably later on pissed with youâŚ
I donât get any feeling that being pessimists end better or something my two good playthroughs were really optimistic and I feel I did two allies. My Poison queen is doing exactly the same as a good queen . Being dutiful and faithful , protecting the army being friendly with anyone he was gentle with Meliagunt , she even healed his bounds ejem ( forget the real reasons behind all that. Noone besides my Guen could know) The only real thing she did remotely ruthless was kill the guy who tried assassinated her twice, using dark magic and inside a battle. And she didnât lie about it to Arthur she was sincere. Even him recognice Guen action was inside Queen prerogatives in war time.
So if a ruthless Guen did well her job as I did , believe me is not easy Ponder when did this or fake that or when tell the truth. Why I have to get a text saying âBad girl, bad I know you did all to succeed in the possible But is not a moral way to act so you will have a bad ending boooo bad person.â
If you are bad planning your relationship and skills and where go or act you will be screwed ; Doesnât matter if you are a optimistic, nihilistic or a humanistic Guen. Let everyone choose they path freely and not moralize about if in a game good people is reward enough because they are better than evil people. It is a game, let people try to play as they want within impose your morality to their characters.
How exactly DOES a trusting Guen get punished?
@poison_mara At this point I donât think you care about what Iâm saying because you keep claiming I am in favor of something Iâm not.
I am not in favor of âBut it is not a moral way to act so you will have a bad ending boooo bad person.â
I am talking about this:
Optimistic Guen: I let Hrothulf live because I want peace.
Pessimistic Guen: I kill Hrothulf because I want peace.
I think everyone playing this knows which has more effect on the attacks.
I have no doubt that youâre working carefully to pick sensible choices and thatâs influencing your successes.
The problem is that those who want to play a different Guen and still make sensible choices are being told that sensible and trusting or merciful donât go together and have no successes come from their preferred method.
@Bomsasa âCongratulations! You wanted peace, but because the Romano-Saxons are treacherous dogs sparing Hrothulfâs life was the wrong thing to do! Hope you like attempted assassinations and the border being harassed all the time, but if not, too bad!â
Iâm not against that happening some of the time, but right now we have no reason not to think itâll be just as bad the next time weâre given that kind of choice except hoping Jean isnât going to write it just as unfavorably.
And as I, the person typing this, am a pessimist, you can tell where Iâm betting.
The Saxons donât stop harassing the borders either way, though, and the assassinations stopping if you kill Hrothulf is just plain SUSPICIOUS, given that Cornelia, not her husband, seems to be behind those.
Edit: What is weird, though, is why a Guen who spares Hrothulf in order to make peace just doesnât keep the bastard as a hostage in a prison cell.
I just donât understand what do you want.Your Guen could be all optimistic she wants, but Hrothulf and they people would still being murderous people that want conquest your kingdom. The fact you pick him in the war, doesnât change their nation in a peaceful unicorn and rainbows paradise. I am Spanish and our kings were captured each few years . And war stood going i 800 years. Save him jean ha said will influence 3 book and later, probably you would get him as ally.
This is a 6 BOOKS STORY , 6 so you canât have automatic spoiler about how your actions would affect future years. You are being really pessimistic about it, lol. @Elfwine trust more in @jeantown she already tell you that your good actions would have rewards, be patient.
With years and nursing peace with Saxons you could obtain some kind of peace. But you have to understand that being optimistic with some bad dictators dont work. Do you think 2WW could have ended if nations still let Hitler conquest all Europe and Africa to avoid a war?
@Elfwine thatâs the current state of game progress. Iâm sure that ultimately the choice to kill Hrothulf will be about getting many small strikes or one really big one much later in the story.
@poison_mara Donât forget about Godwinâs law, Hrotulf and Cornelia arenât Nazis.
It was just an example about how not matter how your point of view is, some people just would act regardless your actions. Other people need time to think , maybe sign peace is better for my nation.
What I have said multiple times - for Guens who are ruthless and mistrustful to at times be wrong in regards to the notion the only way to solve something is violently, even to the point of at times having violence make matters worse instead of those who believe that peaceful means can yield results guaranteed failure and those who donât have to be actively idiotic to fail.
There is a huge gap between âa peaceful unicorn and rainbows paradiseâ and âa place that would be willing to make peace without planning to break the treaty before the ink driesâ . Iâm not looking for the former. I donât even particularly want the former in this game. But I do want to see the latter.
And what I think is that the fact that the idea of being optimistic ever at any point might not be the same as idiocy is compared to the naivety letting Hitler conquer all of Europe and Africa is an extremely bad thing to have this game be supporting.
@WulfyK Iâm not, when we have seen nothing suggesting that it isnât âmany small strikes and one really big oneâ for not killing him. Or that anyone in Frankmarch can be trusted further than I could throw Lancelot in full armor. The answer to âDo they have no shame?â has been a consistent âYes, they have no shame at all.â for both the Romano-Saxons and the Franks - it would be far easier to believe Grimald and Tilda are both bad choices than that either is a good choice if I was playing Guen the way I personally think at the moment.
Frankly, unless at some point before the end of book 2 we see something where trusting someone actually proves to be more successful than assuming the worst of everyone(1) or that mistrusting someone makes it more difficult to accomplish a given goal (doesnât even to be any particular goal - just that something succeeding is given a boost by believing someoneâs offer of help is sincere or that something is hindered by assuming no one can be trusted), then I am not convinced I want to play this to the end in the hopes that âmaybe book 4? 5? 6? when will this happen?â. Iâm not looking for spoilers on what as much as looking for something where it is definitive that some event will be such an event.
I would like to think that this is purely that the person typing this is a pessimist, but âHave faith in other people.â is not the kind of argument that will make me believe that I have anything to be optimistic about ahead.
I donât have faith in the people in Jeanâs game.
1: Not including Bretta and Maris.
You are really pessimist my friend. When I save him I donât find anything weird or strange that make me feel this Camelot is a distopy like 1984 where you canât trust no one. Tilda seems a good ally for a truly good guen and a good alliance for a peaceful Camelot, Hoth probably respect your Guen and after show him in war your nation is strong and word of respect. He probably pact with you. Nordic cultures were known for ending in peace and allies after this kind of stuff.
But that kind of people need time to change, Cordelia is so full of hatred. That if she think you are weak she just trying assassination. If her guy is down she just plot more carefully and lethal your death.
If Tilda is such an ally, I will be very pleased. I am not pleased by the fact the game is making me feel like the only reason I have to trust her is that I trust Jean herself rather than any of the people in her game world.
@Elfwine by making all these successless assassination attempts theyâre wasting resources. Even if theyâre planning for something big, they wonât be able to get men and equipment of the same number and quality as Cornelia will be able if sheâs just waiting. Just imagine all these assassins caughtby the guards striking at once. 
Besides, even if these people wonât change, thereis a chance that their heirs will be better. But having killed someoneâs daddy is a good way to ruin a relationship with them from the start. This could easily lead to a never ending blood feud.
@WulfyK Yes, it could easily lead to a never ending blood feud.
I will bet you the price of your Dragoonâs promotion to lieutenant colonel that it wonât turn into one unless Guen goes out of her way to ensure it does - or more clearly that Hrothulfâs death wonât cause that to happen, that Guen has to actively push and push for that to happen instead of that being enough of a reasonâŚ
Whereas Guen picking the âYes, I do like being the target for assassination attempts.â option is guaranteed to have assassination attempts continue into book 3 (edit: by comparison, in fairness to Jeanâs promises).
Thereâs no reason that it has to be this, and thatâs precisely the problem.
@Elfwine I donât know enough about Corneliaâs mind but I canât rule it out that after Hrothulfâs death sheâll spend all the time indoctrinating her kids and grandkids that Guen and Arthur must die.
Guen canât see into future and doesnât know for sure that sparing Hrothulf will result in these attempts while killing him wouldnât. For some Guens it would be OOC to kill him.
And for the player, as long as the assassination attempts donât result in success they just add a bit of thrill to the text theyâre reading.