Guenevere (WIP)

@poison_mara Thank you for the sympathies.

Because Guen hasn’t seen Arthur since the kiss or hearing about the dreams? All Guens will be able to tell Arthur about the kiss when they see him again. His reaction will vary, depending on how Guen tells him, but it should be possible to use the kiss to start putting a bit of animosity between Arthur and Lancelot. In any case, Arthur won’t be able to brush this one off as easily as he did in part 1.

You’ve asked for this many times, so let me address it directly: Evil Guen will indeed have an opportunity, later in the series, to claim that Lancelot sexually assaulted her in Frankmarch. This will be a very big deal because it’s not something I take lightly. I consider false claims of rape to be one of the most despicable things a person can do, because false rape claims contribute to a culture in which accounts of real rape are dismissed. So I’m not going to casually throw false rape claims into the game just for the fun of messing with Arthur, any more than I’m going to let Guen intentionally rape people or abuse animals just for fun – this game is never going to be that evil. That said, Evil Guens, such as they are, will get their chance to make a false accusation in part 6.

As for an evil goddess… hmmm, cool idea; I’ll have to think about it. There is definitely evil magic, some of which will appear in part 3. I’ve worked out a ton of lore involving magical items and royal families, but I hadn’t given much thought to the role of evil in religious thought in Guen’s Britain. I’ll think about it. Thanks! (:

@Elfwine Arthur’s trust (or lack thereof) for Guenevere should affect how he reacts to anything she tells him about Lancelot at the end of part 2. Guen’s reputation may (should, if I can make it work) play into how the wider public accepts, or doesn’t accept, anything she might say about Lancelot’s behavior. Mara’s Guen, who has worked hard to make everyone think she’s all sweetness and light, would most likely succeed with a false accusation.

@buggygirl11

because… uh… I care so very deeply about you having the best possible experience with the story, and I don’t want to spoil it? …and/or I am a mean, mean person? One of those. Maybe both. Anyway, thank you for all of the different Guen reactions; they’re great! I probably won’t be able to include all of those nuances on the first pass, but once I have the basic framework of that conversation down, I can probably layer in more variation in terms of tone and emotions. I utterly love how different your Guens are, and how much thought you’ve put into them. Reading about them really is extremely helpful for me! :smile:

:flushed: Wow. That… could work. It’s a brilliant idea. I would love it if the hardening process could come back to bite Guen later on, and that would be a great way to do it. It would only happen if Guen had never told Arthur she was involved with Lancelot, and Arthur was only finding out about it for the first time… but that’s definitely one possible path, so… yeah. It’s in the notes now. Thank you!

@RynWill Oh, thank you, and thanks for making the account! :slight_smile: I’m glad you’re here. The question about Morgana is a good one. You’re right that things are currently set so that if Guen doesn’t initiate a romance with Morgana in the tent, the option basically disappears. I don’t want that to be the case in the long run, though. I’ve always intended to make it possible to initiate romances later in the series, once more things have happened and the characters have developed more. It hadn’t occurred to me to enable Guen to express internal interest in Morgana even if she didn’t start the romance, but I can and should do that, so thank you for the idea! I’ll see what I can do. (:

@Sovereign2Lilith Arthur at the end of part 2 won’t be quite the same as Arthur at the end of part 1. Part 1 Arthur had just won a significant victory, more or less, but part 2 Arthur will be facing the undeniable truth that his mistake put the whole kingdom at risk. He’ll already know that he messed up; he won’t need Guen to tell him that, though she can amplify or downplay his guilt if she likes. He won’t suddenly distrust Lancelot, even if Guen tells him about the kiss, but Guen should be able to take the moment to start the two of them on a path toward less trust, if she chooses.

Anyway, I love the complex psychology of your Guen’s relationship with Lancelot – that’s fascinating! I can’t wait to see how she’ll handle future developments. As for hardening Arthur, he’s going to be feeling vulnerable and guilty at the end of part 2, so he’ll finally be more open to Guen’s influence. Telling him about Lancelot may actually contribute to hardening him further, depending on how it’s done – but if that happens, Guen may also lose Arthur’s trust. In any case, Guen will be able to seize the opportunity to have some real influence over Arthur, more than she’s ever had before.

@Jaxx Way back when I first planned the series, I wasn’t going to include the Grail, but since then I have done a 180 and the Grail is now going to play a major part! The Grail will be discussed for the first time in part 3, and then it will appear in part 4. In my current plan, Guen will even be able to use the Grail herself (to do some Stuff) in part 4. And then part 6 will basically be a race/battle between two sides who will both be trying to obtain the Grail, so there will be a few Grail-Quest elements there. I’m glad I changed my mind, and that I was able to come up with a way to include the Grail in a world where Christianity doesn’t exist. I’m hoping my take on it will allow it to have some of its original significance, while also being different enough to be interesting.

@CaesarCzech No specific plans at the moment, but there’s a lot more story to tell! If something comes up, I’ll let you know. :smile:

Thanks, everyone… Hope I replied to everything, but if not, let me know!

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You really know my Guen . And I don’t try to say Arthur about a rape, that could be easy to show it fake. But telling him about his improper behavior is currently Guen objective. And the main reason my Guen never would try to have sex to other men besides Arthur. It is not for moral or something like that. It is pure pragmatism, this is not modern times where you could have sex freely without consequences. My Guen would never risk have a child with other guy, having account the Pendragon blood stuff that point clearly if the child is a bastard or not. Mordred is different because he actually have Pendragon blood And at that point my hippie would be dead or in a torture chamber so no problem. :imp:

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@Elfwine

I don’t think character change is impossible; I just think there needs to be a reason for the change. Arthur is the king and the last of his bloodline; his mistakes could possibly impact all of Britain, so he should be more cautious.

Guen knows that Meliguant tried to kill Arthur 7 years ago. I know that this was a long time ago, but no life alering event(s) caused him to change ( that Guen knows about) . Arthur’s character does not seem to have changed much since first meeting Meliguant because still lets most of his attackers live.

The only character that has changed (from being generally flirtatious to focusing on being the queen’s knight) is Lancelot . This was because of his new strong attraction to his best friend’s wife. Without that event or another important event, Lance would have no reason to change his character.

I’m not suggesting that Britain should have no allies , but Arthur should be more cautious especially around those he has a reason to suspect. It’s his castle so it wouldn’t have seemed suspicious to have more guards around.

There’s also STDs.

Yay!

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Earlier you gave a vague answer when someone pointed out that Tilda might have witnessed Lance and Guen doing it. So presumably, she would have also witnessed Lance not raping Guen. Could Lance possibly use this to his advantage in the event that Guen falsely accuses him of attacking her?

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@poison_mara I’m glad I have your confidence. I really do think your Guen is going to get to do at least some of the evil things she wants to do; it’s just going to take time. :smile:

@Sovereign2Lilith Speaking of things taking time, all of the characters will undergo development; there just hasn’t been much time for it yet. As you say, Lance has had some; Arthur will be able to change somewhat at the end of part 2, and Morgana and Arthur will both change in the wake of Mordred’s conception. Lancelot will get more development once the non-love-spell is explained, and then more as more of his backstory is revealed in future installments.

@Mirabella I suppose Lance could try… but if Guen really wants to accuse him, it’s not like they had a chaperone/witness for every second they were together in Frankmarch, so negative evidence would only go so far.

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So, I had my Guen always keep Lance’s attractions between them and not tell Arthur anything about it. Not because she loves Lance, she thinks of him as one of her closest friends, but she agrees that telling Arthur would only hurt him. But as I’ve been reading these comments, it looks like that was the evil option. Did I accidentally make my Guen a bad person?
I mean, I don’t mind my Guen being a little bad. She’s a practical ends-justify-the-means kind of person who, while she always tries to find a moral way and does like to have fun every now and then, will not hesitate to resort to underhanded actions if no other option presents itself; she’ll do /anything/ to secure a future for Britain. But she still cares for her friends a lot and while she originally saw her marriage as duty, she did come to love her husband.
I would just like it to be clear if keeping Lance’s attraction a secret was an objectively evil thing. Or maybe give us a chance to explain ourselves to the story as to why we’re hiding it.

I know that Lol. But there were no sex education in Medieval, just saying… Know I have the mental image of Barbie giving a sex ed class to hippie. Probably, he believed at first that flying pink elephants carry the babies throug rainbowns.

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From now on, whenever a kid asks where babies come from, I’ll tell him/her they come from flying pink elephants that carry them through rainbows.

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@Sovereigh2Lilth There’s a difference “Arthur could be a bit more suspicious instead of assuming the best.” and “Arthur is inviting his enemies in.”, which is why I commented. Guen knows almost nothing about Meligaunt, she has no basis to tell what his character is like of if he’s still actively hostile to Arthur.

I’m not saying you should stop playing your Guen a certain way - but “assume the worst and you won’t be disappointed” is a very negative view of human nature, especially when this Britain hasn’t been established as a place that if you want to murder someone, you wait until they’re in church so they’re less likely to be surrounded by bodyguards. It seems a bit more than merely practicality at this point.

@Jeantown Yay, Trust stuff! But seriously, it’s nice to have that used here (this story) given how much involves building or not a good relationship with the other three.

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Elfwine each player has their own Guen with their own distinctive motivations and moral values. Being a pessimist is not bad perse, and human history has given enough examples of cruelty, evils and violence that having a very negative view of humanity is not so weird. Many philosophers has developed one or other view. And the story of Meliagunt shows clearly that being less confident about his intention has sense.
And if a guy that tried to kill me 7 years ago, really badly. Suddenly come to my door like ambassador from a rival nation my kingdom has been most or less in war during centuries I just watch him closely with a lot of guards and poisoners. Anyway, each player has their own Camelot with their own morality and characters and further we advance on it, further our worlds would be different. So there is not wrong or right for everyone playthrough.

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@jeantown False rape accusations?! :open_mouth: Wow, this game is getting dark…not that I mind, because it provides a great way (well, great for them-horrible and immoral and despicable for the non-sociopaths among us) for my Evil and Ruthless Guens to get out of the same sticky situation that Canon Guen will find herself in in Book VI (hardened Arthur finding out about the infidelity).

But as Canon Guen isn’t willing to throw Lance under the bus to save her own skin…she’ll be in deep, deep trouble. :smiling_imp:

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True, but Tilda could say that they were working together to save the day, which Guen probably wouldn’t have been doing if Lance had just assaulted her. And if they went in separate directions, Lance probably wouldn’t have had a chance to assault Guen afterwards.

Also, if Guen and Lance did the deed in Frankmarch, then Lance could call on the witness to testify that they had consensual sex. However, that would land them both in hot water for treason. I don’t know if that’s better or worse than the rape accusation.

Oh, and thank you for not taking the false rape accusations lightly. I hate when women do that because it creates a Crying Wolf situation in a society that still doesn’t treat rape as seriously as it should.

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@poison_mara I’m not saying being pessimistic is immoral. I - the person writing this - am a pessimist. But this setting is not a place - from what Jean has said - where most people are unscrupulous bastards, which makes views based on that much more purely cynical - as opposed to “realistic” or “pragmatic” or “insightful” - than if it was 16th century Italy, where people were murdered in churches because they were less likely to be surrounded by armed guards.

The story of Meligaunt is virtually nonexistent - we have him try, several years ago and on only one occasion to kill Arthur, we know very little about him beside that, and yet we have hear the so-called practical Guens acting as if he’s spent the last few years in unrelenting hostility. Nor do we have anything suggesting that the Franks and Britons are incapable of being at peace with each other from what Jean has presented .

I don’t mind if other people don’t share my beliefs or my play style, but I think that at some point being pessimistic and mistrustful and emphasizing security on high alert all the time should be treated as no better than Arthur’s optimistic attitude. Otherwise this game becomes a lot more dark and gloomy.

Some people would consider that a good thing, but I think it would be unfair and unfun and unfitting to what Jean has said about the setting for optimists to be wrong about Hrothulf and making peace (among other things) but pessimists never being tripped up by their negativity.

@Jeantown I don’t want to suggest something that basically is about stepping on other players’s toes, but I do wish to make that a serious suggestion. Not necessarily for this chapter, but especially if you’re going to say you can either spare or kill Hrothful for reasons that get you treated as more practical, can we see that being too cautious and mistrustful can cause Guen problems? Alienating potential allies because they feel insulted, or the like.

A Guen who is (too) trusting is at best risking looking or feeling like a fool, after all, with what we have now.

Elfwine You are basically asking Jean, that all Guens have to be punished for not being like yours? That is not fair at All. I would never asking for something similar. The bad or good results has to be based in our Guen skills and the relationship with characters, not in your moral. It is like If I said something like my Guen is ruthless I want all not ruthless guens being screwed and fail for being trust full. That is not cool for a rp point of view and kill replay value.
Being good trustworthy etc has to have pros and cons based in skills and relationships like being ruthless.

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@poison_mara
My morals don’t have anything to do with this.

What I’m saying is “Why should a Guen who is cynical and pessimistic never have to face that this is not always appropriate? Why should that Guen never have to worry that her attitude might be a mistake, that she might never be wrong about a given situation? All the other Guens have to worry like that.”

Right now things are suggesting that you can’t go wrong by assuming the worst. If the game continues like that, so that this never ever backfires, it will be punishing Guens who are like mine and rewarding Guens who aren’t.

Both directly by saying that nothing will ever become a problem as a result of Guen’s actions unless Guen is good/nice/merciful/trusting, and indirectly by saying that the solutions to all problems favor the ruthless and skeptical approach.

I’m not against ruthless and skeptical Guens. I simply want them to have to worry about whether their skills and relationships are good enough and if choices are right as much as anyone else.

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You are totally wrong @jeantown has said tons of times that being ruthless or nice or whatever could result in different things good or bad depending of your stats and relationships with characters. Being ruthless has no sense from rp point of view for many Guens. But of course game will have villiains that betray good people and people good that get pissed if you are ruthless and then attack you.

The fact my Guen seem so successful is because I am good choosing the paths for her and because she is totally acting as a good Guen,lol. Probably better than 99% of good Guens. But if a ruthless Guen pissed Lance, Arthur and Morgana and treat nobles and commoners as shit, I don’t think they have many future when attacks came.

We don’t reach the part of the story when lies, betrayal and infidelity going to smash some Guens in the face. Being ruthless or evil in games is a risky business I swear to you from experience in rp. That is why I always try to hide my machiavelian scemes and maximize diplomacy or and charisma.

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I agree with @Elfwine in the sense that i too don’t like when often it is treated as when you are pessimistic = you are intelligent and realist, but if you are optimist, then you are stupid and naive. And it often looks like many people think that way, not only here on the forum.
But as @poison_mara said, that is not the case in Jean’s game. Here we have, or will have perfectly good oportnity and reward for being pessimist or optimist, so i don’t think that there is a need to suggest any changes in that.

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@poison_mara
If you’re prevailing because you’re smart and thoughtful, great. I don’t want that to be changed.

But it’s not hard to play ruthlessly and mistrustfully without compromising your relationships. If you want to make Arthur dislike you, or as much as he dislikes anyone, you can, but it won’t happen simply because of Guen’s ruthlessness or anything else opposed to how he thinks and believes unless she feels she has to express it specifically in a way that will upset him.

As stated, so far only those Guens who are good/nice/merciful/trusting are being given reasons to question their actions, question whether or not other methods would work better - regardless of how smart or skilled or well-liked she is.

@Ponku When and if Jean has something negative happen to Guen or Britain because she’s pessimistic, I will believe it.

When and if Jean has a Guen whose reaction to some mysterious stranger is mistrust or even active hostility costs her a potential (or current) ally, I’ll believe it.

When and if we have a Guen who believes a show of ruthlessness will scare people into doing what she wants find out that it actually makes them more hostile, I’ll believe it.

Right now a sensible Guen played by a sensible player can be as ruthless, mistrustful, pessimistic, and so on as she likes . . . and none of that will work against that Guen. That’s fine on its own, I like that Jean wants peopel playing “bad” Guens to have fun too. What’s not fine is that a sensible Guen played by a sensible player being merciful, trusting, optimistic and so on can’t say the same - because it isn’t fun to deal with the fact that a negative attitude towards others is vindicated and a positive attitude is heading for disappointment.

@Elfwine I always got the impression that Evil/Ruthless Guens would have their own unique problems to deal with, but that they would be less immediate and more long-term (but potentially more serious).

For example, @jeantown just added to her notes that a non-faithful Guen who hardens Arthur and keeps the infidelity a secret will have a serious problem in Book VI when a hardened Arthur passes the death sentence on Guen. (I came up with the idea myself, actually! :smiley:)

Another issue that my Evil/Ruthless Guens will have to deal with (but everyone else will be spared from) is Tilda’s enmity against them for actively working against Queen Radagund. I don’t know what exactly will happen there, but as Tilda gives me the distinct impression that she would make a very bad enemy, I’m guessing they’ll have their hands full. :smiling_imp:

Sure, they’ll get to wait a little longer before their consequences to catch up with them than more good/idealistic Guens do, but personally I’d take dealing with Arthur’s antics over a death sentence, a dangerous enemy, and probably more any day! :wink:

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