Guenevere (WIP)

[Elfwine]

@Jeantown If I had to make a concrete suggestion, which given the nature of my complaint I should:

I’m not suggesting that you make it so there’s one obvious Right way to read everything and everything else is wrong, but it can be difficult to be read a situation or person fairly or clearly.

Its hard to treat Arthur’s ideas relative to what pragmatism tells us when pragmatism could just as easily say “If I kill Hrothulf that will make making peace more difficult.” as “If I don’t kill Hrothulf there will be trouble in the future.” It makes choosing whether or not I do more whether I support Arthur’s idea of what’s a good idea (whether independently or in connection to support for Arthur personally) or the ideas of Lancelot and Morgana (whether independently or in connection to support to either personally).

I like the “I let him live because” and “I killed him because” as far as game choices - they cover all the major thoughts that Guen might have - but when both
#It’s the best way to end the Romano-Saxon attacks. Without their leader, Hrothulf’s people will have to back off.
It was the best choice for keeping Britain safe.

and

 #We could get a lot of valuable information by questioning him.
   We should find out everything we can about our enemies.

are “practical”, there’s no way to choose between the two on those grounds.

Kind of hard to play a queen who is concerned about avoiding unnecessary - as opposed to necessary - killing of her enemies when whether or not this is “necessary” is 'That’s up to you, really."

Yes, it is up to me, but me and my completely uninformed mind have no way to weigh it. At that point I’m more choosing whether or not I want to upset Arthur than whether or not I think he’s wrong.

I, the player, that is.

[Kinruush]

Personally, my governing choices are heavily influenced by Peter’s Evil Overlord List.

[CaesarCzech]

@jeantown

@Ponku @poison_mara Bioware actually
never asks the player to define the PC’s sexuality, and they definitely
do not hide options based on sexuality – in fact, they have again and
again had to tell whiny dudebros that they’re not going to put in a “gay
toggle,” and they won’t hide gay flirt options just because the player
considers their PC straight. Similarly, as I said above, I won’t take
out the option for Guen to have a fluid sexuality, or to develop a
relationship that seems to be at odds with what she says her orientation
is – as @Tehani says, that’s really important to some people.

as far as i remember the problem was only with anders, Who wouldnt take no for answer rest of it was done tastefully.

[WulfyK]

The choice of orientation is only really important for the game mechanics if it determines the gender of some ROs or if some characters treat the MC differently depending on her/his orientation.

In case of Guen, orientation can be a bit blurred anyway: even if she’s lesbian or ace, she’s been raised with the expectation to enter and arranged marriage with a man and have sex with him to give birth to his children. I could well imagine a Guen who needs some time and actual sexual experience in order to figure out that she’s not into men.

@Kinruush what’s that?

[Kinruush]

It is basically a list of things that a man named Peter would do if he were an evil overlord in an attempt to avoid the cliches and pitfalls that villains frequently fall into.

http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

[WulfyK]

Thank you, it looks interesting.

I’m sure @poison_mara is an avid reader.

[hishman13]

@WulfyK Well, Guen does have the option to lie about or reveal that she does have some actual sexual experience, when talking to Arthur. I personally prefer it when ROs don’t flop genders based on orientation, it just feels weird and pandering to me lol. However, choice of orientation can be important to some people as it’s part of their identity. Oh, I totally missed “for the game mechanics”… lol.

@jeantown I’m glad you won’t take out the options for a fluid sexuality, as it not only makes Guen and her relationships more realistic, but it’s also important not to lock people if they actually mention their sexuality. Also, it’s important to me, so thank you!

[jeantown]

Hey everyone, I’m travelling this weekend, so apologies if I don’t make much sense here…

@Efwine I see what you’re saying, though I have to be honest and say that’s probably not going to change much in terms of the options being presented (I just don’t think there’s any one Right way to be pragmatic, any more than there’s one Right way to be good or evil). I don’t know if maybe you’ll find things somewhat more satisfying when the consequences of Guen’s choices play out? The choice to kill or not kill Hrothulf will have one possible consequence in part 2, and then a different possible consequence (for the opposite decision) in part 3. But you’re right that there’s nothing at the choice-point to indicate that killing Hrothulf is objectively necessary, from a pragmatic point of view. I honestly believe there can be pragmatic reasons (and more than one pragmatic reason on either side) both for killing one’s enemies and keeping them alive.

Part of the reason I was initially hesitant to update with only the first half of part 2 is that so far, the reader has been asked to make several decisions (kill Hrothulf or not, send the pet with Meligaunt or not, exactly how to escape from the boat) without yet being able to find out what the consequences will be. I hope the gameworld itself will seem at least a little less ambiguous once more concrete consequences are known. But there are probably always going to be some decisions for which no one choice will be flagged as being the kind and sweet option or the ruthless or pragmatic option. The reader will just be uninformed and have to decide which seems like the best fit for the motivations at hand – because that’s how a lot of real life seems to me to be.

@Kinruush In that case, I assume we can rest assured that we’ll never see your Guen in a stainless steel bustier? Or, much more importantly, that she will never, ever explain her evil plan to the hero, or leave her enemies for dead at the bottom of a cliff?

@CaesarCzech When I was playing my male Inquisitor, I took the flirt option with Cullen because I knew he was straight and I wanted to see what would happen. I thought the way Cullen turned the male Inquisitor down was relatively well done – media could use a lot more representation of people expressing romantic/sexual interest in someone of an incompatible orientation, and then it NOT being some huge awkward end-of-the-world thing, or a comedy point – just a simple “no” and move on.

@WulfyK and @hishman13 The arranged marriage situation does, I think, have particular potential to set up some orientation fluidity. I know two women who both had traditional marriages with children, and didn’t decide until they were about fifty that they were lesbians – and according to them it wasn’t “I knew all along but I was too scared to say;” it genuinely was a kind of cultural brainwashing early in life that made them honestly believe that of course they were straight and wanted husbands, because why would you do anything else? And then they each met the right woman (not each other, actually), and everything changed. And beyond that, while I’ve known some gay and lesbian people who just knew what their orientation was all along, I’ve also known some that didn’t know they weren’t interested in the opposite sex that way until being intimate with the opposite sex and discovering that it just wasn’t as enjoyable as expected. People’s experiences are wildly different.

[Elfwine]

@Jeantown

I think what it boils down to for me on that choice with Hrothulf is that “the motivations at hand” feels a bit “I can say either fits the motivations for the character, neither (life or death) represents her motivations better.”

I do like how you set up how Guen can prioritize multiple things (either as in not focusing only a single stat, or having many choices of what things matter), and there’s no clear answer if she’s right or not until after her decision is beyond undoing is good - in that regard, only having the first half of part 2 up so far is only annoying because you did such a good job whetting my appetite for the second.

So long as that’s true I will think well of this game and story, and you for writing it. I just don’t happen to feel as enthusiastic about about what happens from ambiguity as others, and wanted to say as much while people were posting their divergent opinions. I think its good that different people with different ideas see it differently, if Mara’s Poison Queen playthrough had her Guen make choices identical to Custos Britannia (or however the Good Responsible Queen should sound), in any way but chance, that would be weird in a much more alarming way. But its thankfully averted by your writing.

[Victoriya]

If you liked that, check out this review. It was a year ago, and is only for book one, but 382 people liked it. This person wrote that, “…the depth of choice is just perfect.”

[poison_mara]

Well If I ending with the same epilogue as Custos Britannia I would be pissed very, very, very angry But the game is clearly tracking correctly when my character is lying and why is doing some stuff that apparently is good for hippie. If you do a lying Machiavellian playthrough you already could read some nasty remarks about how stupid is hippie or how Barbie is under my complete control the fool. So there is no really ambiguity, is just some thing is left to our imagination.

[Elfwine]

@Poison_Mara Yeah, but a lesser author would probably not be trying so hard to track all those things like “Did I really mean that?” and “What made you do this?”

So yeah, praise for Jean for that.

[poison_mara]

I have never played two times in a row a good character just for giving feedback a normal writer Jean is awesome, sadly she is not in bioware, imagine Guen in a Bioware engine. With Hippie like Alistair Morgana as Morrigan And Barbie as Zev…

[jeantown]

@Elfwine @poison_mara Aw, thanks, guys. I know that both of you would have done some things differently, so it means a lot to me that you both still appreciate the game even so. And @Elfwine thanks for giving your thoughts; I really will keep them in mind as I mull things over.

@Victoriya I think your link didn’t work, but was it to a tumblr post? It sounds familiar, though I don’t think it had that many notes back when I saw it!

[Elfwine]

@Jeantown Thank you very much, and keep up the good characterizing.

[Fire_Strider96]

Just curious, is it possible to have sex with both Arthur and Morgana in book II? I know I’m terrible and can’t decide between them, but there both so freaking awesome! Not personally fond of Lancelot, but still amazingly written.

[jeantown]

@Fire_Strider96 If Guen tells Arthur to visit her room later when he asks, and then invites Morgana to her room, she’ll have a chance to hold hands with Morgana before Arthur shows up. Guen can then kick Morgana out (which isn’t rude at all; Morgana is dead tired and really needs sleep) and have sex with Arthur. Then, later on, when Guen and Morgana are in the ship’s hold, Guen can still initiate a romance and possible sex with Morgana.

It’s actually been so long since I wrote those parts that I had to go back and check! But it should work as long as Morgana is legitimately interested in a romantic and/or sexual relationship with Guen.

[Unicornswillcry]

Will we find out what happened to the Guen’s necklace ?

[jeantown]

@Unicornswillcry Yes, you will, at the end of part 2.

[Kinruush]

Found a typo after I tell Arthur we’re going to disagree at the end of Act 1.

“But it’s important for you to know that I’m never, ever going to give up on my vision.” no matter what happens."

There’s an extra quote mark in there and it needs a capital “N.”