Gender-locking ROs, gender flipping, and importance of gender in relationships

[FairyGodfeather]

Yeah biphobia’s another thing entirely. As is discrimination against asexual people. (is that acephobia?) And it’s awful to be told, from the very people you think should be accepting you, that you’re not welcome.

@ParrotWatcher

I’ve actually considered writing one myself…

WRITE IT!!! [quote=“Laguz, post:62, topic:23002”]
all hets are bigots,
[/quote]

You might as well argue that all people are bigots. No point singling out just heterosexual people. All people are bigots. I might as well say “you’re a bigot”. But that’s not going to help anything I don’t think. People get defensive. They start arguing against it. They get offended.

@Laguz

i say “i hate hets, hets are bigots” when what i really mean is “i hate the culture, system, history, prevalence, state, pandering, focus, etc”

I think you really should take to saying the latter, since people take the former personally. They go “wait, I’m a het, you hate me, but I’m not bad” which then derails the discussion. As opposed to the latter, which is much better put.

[poison_mara]

Fairy Sounds interesting but only homo or bi too? Something I would love to see Is a triangle When an actual supposed Hetero relationships the other partner find is bi or nb at the contrary. But that has the ingredients to end offensive everyone… But what not some kind of poli amory When is not a man with women like always happens

[Laguz]

@FairyGodfeather

You might as well argue that all people are bigots. No point singling out just heterosexual people. All people are bigots. I might as well say “you’re a bigot”. But that’s not going to help anything I don’t think. People get defensive. They start arguing against it. They get offended.

I am a bigot. I am, as a white person, a bigot towards black people. I am trying to unlearn why I see black and dark people as instinctively less attractive, less emotional, less human. I understand why because psychology and I am trying.

Hets are bigots to damned lot of me and us, and I will say as I please. I don’t hate on black people for making “white people” jokes, “mayonnaise” jokes. That’s their right. I can’t hate em for that.

@FairyGodfeather

People get defensive. They start arguing against it. They get offended.

@FairyGodfeather

I think you really should take to saying the latter, since people take the former personally. They go “wait, I’m a het, you hate me, but I’m not bad” which then derails the discussion. As opposed to the latter, which is much better put.

No. Because a het that gets offended - once a cis or a het gets angry at you, a minority - you can tell their true colours. Here, on this forum, got at least three people angry and suddenly whoosh, transphobia; you know, you went after a few that I started, at least two got suspended.

Now I, I test em. I test em and I alive and stayin well, and those offended by my anger can stay far away from me. That’s good, I like it like that. Safe.

[poison_mara]

Well you sound really rude but I think you are a great person. Even if you don’t think the same of me. I hope someday people see the person you are and not the shell. But I don’t know all people have shares of guilt and hatred

[Zassuen]

@Laguz

there’s no such thing as heterophobia lmaojust a thing made up by sad straights to mean “wah, 64 straight protagonists this year? last year i had 65!”

Let me start the discussion invasion!
First of all, heterophobia DO exist, i know some people that have a profound hate/fear for straights. If it is because of society oppression or just because they like being mean to people who differ from them, i don’t know, but the fact remains. Or do you think bigotry only works for simple-minded religious stereotypes?[quote=“ParrotWatcher, post:48, topic:23002”]
If we don’t exist in games (or films, or books), that’s not good. Representation normalises us. It shows bigoted straights that we’re really just like them; it shows closeted teens that there are people like them in the world. It’s not just for self-glorification.
[/quote]
I agree, but i think what he meant there is that people have to right to choose how their form of entertainment is if the author makes it possible. They should be able to choose everyone’s gender/sexual orientation if the author gives the possibility and not be criticized about it, the player has the right to play in their own way. If someone doesn’t like homosexual relationships, what is the problem? Nobody is forced to like it, just to accept. And i will accept gladly any kind of character.

@Laguz

the problem is its fucking boring

(and also contributing to queer erasure and alienation in the media)

I find it boring for me because of the lack of diversity, but you can’t decide what’s boring for everyone. Also, how having the option to play all hetero contributes to alienation? It’s an OPTION it doesn’t mean that people can’t choose to live in an everyone is gay/lesbian world, a world of non-binary, pansexual, etc.

@poison_mara

I wouldn’t NEVER CHANGE A GAME FOR DOING THE CHANGE AGAINST THE author plans Is insulting

Exactly! The whole reason why we suggest things is that while we attend to our own personal wishes, the author finds a way to implement these suggestions in a way that doesn’t break the story and immersion!
I dislike patches who aren’t bugfixes, translation and/or mods that add/make possible to add cool multiplayer/singleplayer modes (Gary’s Mod/Minecraft/GTA). For me, they aren’t worth downloading if they change something the author created (cannon).

@Laguz
I find it stupid that concept of every heterosexual is a bigot. That’s the impression you’ve been giving when i’ve been reading your previous posts, and about this:[quote=“Laguz, post:62, topic:23002”]
please learn this word: metonymy. when a person expresses hate for a simplified version of what they actually hate, which is a complex system. i don’t hate every het. i don’t spit on every het i come across. but! as a whole, i say “i hate hets, hets are bigots” when what i really mean is "i hate the culture, system, history, prevalence, state, pandering, focus, etc
[/quote]
What i hate nowadays is nowadays. We live in a era where everyone can be taken to court because of those nonsensical attempts of morally right and wrong, we can’t make light-hearted jokes about someone’s skin color anymore, even if they accept and do the same with us, because it’s racist, yet the government itself, at least the one in the country i live in, created racial quotas, because we need at least one guy from a different ethnicity on our universities, so much for equality, right? And it’s the same with the whole we need someone of a different sexuality to represent us on media, i don’t care about what sexuality/gender the character has, i care about their personality and character development, i care about the entertainment that you’re sacrificing for the sake of your fantasies.
We live in an era where we can’t live with our own gender/sexuality because we want to hate each other so much, we need to be different, we need to create differences. We, and i won’t limit myself because i’m talking about mankind here, myself included, can’t live in peace because we want to. We all want to impose our stupid opinion on one another so much that we do it without even noticing. That is the same as being the bigots you criticize with so much passion.
I’ve edited it because it got flagged, i am sorry if my anger took the best of me. And i am sad that some of you are part of what i mentioned before.

[thatdodgymoggie]

@Laguz

all hets are bigots, tho. not personally not individual people, but as a culture. let me tell u smth: all majorities help to oppress the minorities without even noticing it. microagressions are ingrained into us from a young age

I think this is where a lot of Straight* people get confused. They think we mean they’re evil when we say they’re prejudiced, and they get anxious, hurt and angry instead of asking themselves about why we would say that to them. I get that a lot from my my brothers and sister who think that because they aren’t running around calling us slurs (anymore) that they aren’t prejudiced…

*I’ve been capitalizing the S to emphasize I’m talking about cis, dyadic/non-intersex heterosexual and heteroromantic people but apparently forgot to say that (sorry, guys).

@DreamingGames I’ve been trying to think of a reply, I apologize for the delay. I do know what you’re talking about - as a pansexual person I’ve experienced similar microaggressions, though obviously its not the same and pan people get very biphobic as well - all I can say is I’m sorry you don’t feel safe in the community and that I’m really happy that you found a crowd who accepts you for who you are.

[FairyGodfeather]

Civility is extremely important on the forum though. We don’t want to be making anyone angry.

@Razgriz

Well I can’t actually say anything or you would go ballistic.

This isn’t fair. It’s not fair that some users are worried about speaking up in case other users get angry. When they themselves are not allowed to be angry or uncivil.

We’re not supposed to be deliberately offending anyone by making personal attacks. Blanket statements like I hate hets, I hate cis people, are taken personally. And you just phrased it so well when you specified what you do actually hate.

Yeah I get how keeping people at arms-length is the best way to feel safe.

[Laguz]

@thatdodgymoggie

I think this is where a lot of Straight* people get confused. They think we mean they’re evil when we say they’re prejudiced, and they get anxious, hurt and angry instead of asking themselves about why we would say that to them. I get that a lot from my my brothers and sister who think that because they aren’t running around calling us slurs (anymore) that they aren’t prejudiced…

You’re so good to me… you understand… another trans nb friend… another grand ally… come… we should talk about the Cis-tem in private… whenever you want… whatever you want comrade I am up for anything… games… movies… game mods… books… fanfiction… art… what’s mine is yours…

/kisses fingertips like a stereotypical Italian head chef/[quote=“FairyGodfeather, post:71, topic:23002”]
This isn’t fair. It’s not fair that some users are worried about speaking up in case other users get angry. When they themselves are not allowed to be angry or uncivil.
[/quote]

They literally said this forum is not good to unpopular opinions, which says to me it’s more than just me that’s intimidating.

But if people want to be scared of me, go ahead. Be my guest.

[thatdodgymoggie]

… I can’t find a chef emoji to return the gesture. Darn it. Also lol at “Cis-tem”.

[Razgriz]

Because there are a few people such as yourself that will rally against someone for simply not thinking the same as you do. And you do it with such vitriol that it makes people not want to say anything else in the same thread lest you attack them. You made me terrified to even ask what pronoun my non binary friend wanted me to use so I just stuck to their username for a long while.

[Laguz]

@Razgriz

Because there are a few people such as yourself that will rally against someone for simply not thinking the same as you do.

That’s literally the excuse bigots use. Sorry, but it’s true. Am I going to come there and assault you? No. This is a forum. I am not a mod nor a space-time-traveller. You liked Zassuen’s post and that got flagged, so I assume at worst that’s what will happen to you.

@Razgriz

And you do it with such vitriol that it makes people not want to say anything else in the same thread lest you attack them.

I say things angrily and that apparently makes the “opposition” into people who are angry and livid and at the same time too scared to start an argument. Alright.

You’re going to meet angry LGTBTQA+ people in your life. People angrier than me. People worse than me. It’s best you wise up to it now.

@Razgriz

You made me terrified to even ask what pronoun my non binary friend wanted me to use so I just stuck to their username for a long while.

Thanks for pinning your confidence problem solely on me. Real damning.

But, go ahead. I’m wasting my time on this thread right now. I’ve got music to compose.

[RETowers]

Remember to be polite

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@Laguz The anger doesn’t help the cause. I totally get it. I understand where you’re coming from, and everything. Still doesn’t help. I want more people on board and seeing why these things are important. Anger makes those that inclined to look, but don’t know where to start, look elsewhere. I know, not fair, but it’s true. Humans are animals, and basic appeals to that are necessary to get them inclined to get them to rise above that.

---

@Razgriz “You made me terrified to even ask what pronoun my non binary friend wanted me to use so I just stuck to their username for a long while.” I know you know perfectly well that the individual does not equal the group. That point is no more valid than “I know skinheads, therefore I’m terrified to talk to white people.” (Note: I personally have known some skinheads.)

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@Zassuen Let me put it this way: Heterophobia !=== Homophobia. As far as I know, there have been no mass shootings for ‘straight clubs’ in recent memory. There’s no attempt to legalize electrocuting people into becoming trans. These things are not the same because there is an inherent power disparity.

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Now we’re going to drop this and return to the discussion at hand. If you think there needs to be more discussion, you can take it up with me or one of the other mods through DM.

[Jinx_the_Atomic_Cat]

Genderlocking of ROs is fine as long as you don’t create stereotypes and make “the only option” an unattractive idea because they’re a douchebag or something. Like Jury from Heroes. Gay male. Douchecicle. Only thing about that was there was a choosable gender thing for Black Magic, but they’re also a bit of a weirdo and become douchey/clinically insane later in the book depending on your choices. /spoiler sorta. It’s been around a while. Honestly I always romanced ProdiGal because she was my kinda Yandere.

[Sovereign2Lilith]

It’s also easier to code gender locked protagonist. Quick test, random test, and spell check won’t care if you misgender someone. A beta tester has to read the game and tell you that character A’s gender keeps flipping in the middle of a sentence when they’re male or whatever.

The best way to make a good RO that people will want to romance is just to have a lot of different and fleshed out options. When I play otome games, I can usually find a character I like when I have at least 4 options that are all the correct gender and orientation.

If you’re trying to write a romance game, you should focus on the ROs. If you’re trying to write any other game, focus on the plot and characters first. How do the characters work to serve the plot? Do the characters exist for no other reason than to romance the MC? If so, give them motives and goals. Romance is really just a part of a game (although, good romance is interwoven into the story rather than simply being a side quest) and if you have good characters and plot, people will like the game. I’ve played romance games where I didn’t want to romance any of the characters, but there were good friendship routes and that made the game still good.

[derekmetaltron]

I’m trying to think atm, are there any IF/Choice games in development since Choice of Romance where romance for either gender is the core focus of the story? Generally it seems to be a secondary aspect in most games.

[Sovereign2Lilith]

I don’t remember playing any romance CoGs outside of the Romance series, but the game descriptions for Creatures such as We and A Midsummer’s Night Choice and Twin Flames say they have romance. I don’t remember playing them so I can’t say if they actually mostly focus on romance, or comment about how they handle gender and romance.

[Ramidel]

I’m with the camp that prefers multiple romance options of varied genders to be available, but I’m not fussed if an otherwise-good story has genderflipping romance options. The problem with genderflipped romance options is that it’s usually a symptom of that character’s role in the story being “love interest,” which I dislike. Mecha Ace didn’t do that (I think Cataphrak is constitutionally incapable of making a character whose sole purpose is to be a satellite love interest, though he’s welcome to surprise me if he chooses), so I didn’t mind it. But that’s kind of an exceptional example.

Heroes Rise, Psy High and Champion of the Gods, however, had genderflipped characters who were heavily pushed as love interests, and in the case of Champion, existed solely to be your character’s love interests. Likewise, half of the Psy High love interests were really defined by their status as potential love interests, and the genderflipping of the three “main” love interests highlighted that role (even if Carl/a was clearly more than a love interest). So what I’m saying is, non-genderlocked characters are symptomatic of other problems in my experience, even if they’re not inherently problematic.

[Urban]

@ParrotWatcher

I’ve actually considered writing one myself.

I’m sorry but I’m curious, why you don’t do it? I mean, you already have a game that you have almost finished and another that is in its earlier stage and, for now, have only homosexual RO.

[Arasia_Valentia]

There was a thread about this kinda thing before. Believe it was about gendelocking for woman or something how did it feel. And as a woman of CoG I say I don’t care about male because I always play a homosexual male. But wait! If they made me straight I would be sad. I wouldn’t mind, but be sad. Let me be, what I wanna be. If they made me a female I’d be upset a little cause I am a woman, that isn’t new or exciting to me. Make me a straight woman I’ll be like literally boring, my everyday life, I’m bi jeez this isn’t fun, just let me have a lesbian lover , I cri. Not all of us are male or female or straight or ace or bi, like please.
And what if one day I wanna be cis and romance someone who is idk something else entirely.

What if for a day I’m just sitting like, today I’m a f*cking rock. Let me be a rock!(just joking) If I wanted to play nb then I should be allowed to even though I am the farthest thing. Let me be, like, genderfluid. Let me be whatever I want to be even though I admire my boobs too much in reality. Let me hit on whomever I wanna hit on. Maybe I’m in love with this tree,man. Maybe I dream of marrying Groot! ()You don’t know so don’t assume. That’s how I feel atleast. And no, some of the context has nothing to do with terms I put in here so don’t get yer panties in a twist.(jeez I’m aggressive tonight )(that means u Mara u aggressive lovely woman you, I U and hope you recover someday)