Gender-locking ROs, gender flipping, and importance of gender in relationships

Game Development Writing and Content
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omg…you know…

what you said there ? it remind me of a memory…of a small discussion I had with a friend now an ex-friend .

we were watching something , and a Lesbian showed up and she was wearing a tie with a suit . And the friend who owned a shop that sell womens clothes said something like ‘‘why is she trying to be a man ? Is that a lesbian thing?’’ .

I had to explain that…where she see ‘womens clothes and mens clothes’ . I for exemple , all I see is ‘confortable…unconfortable’’ . I told her that she isnt trying to be a man , she is wearing what she is confortable in…what she think fit her body better…what look good in her eyes . These labels of ‘only for mens, only for womens’ are indicators…but honestly…you can buy either and wear them .

I told her they are clothes! fabric…that get washed and tainted and they can tear and get wrinkled . why are you putting a Label there for ? you wear a dress and high heel…should we label you Girly or something ? you wear what you like…what you feel confortable in…so do I .

uh…I guess how tis tie to the topic ? I guess it remind me often of the saying ‘Why dont just play your opposite gender ?’'…cose I’m done being uncofortable and not relating to said gender . :sweat_smile:

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What this says to me is that we could have a genderflipping RO who likes wearing suits, or one who likes wearing dresses, or one who likes wearing either depending on the mood, no matter what gender that RO is flipped to, because that’s just a person who happens to like suits or dresses or both, and that’d be a totally valid character to include!

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not just clothes , think about it : when was the last time you read a story about a dude with long hair or a braided hair ?

Honestly…I think the main point is Label . Label are good in moderation, but sometimes they are used as barrier to block someone from something . They hurt as much as a slur word .

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I pretty much just agree with @TSSL.

I think people get way too stuck on what is male and what is feminine, and that’s both annoying and boring.

This is actually something I actively search for in the media I consume.

My dad had long hair when I was a child (and my mum had short hair), my elder brother has long hair, my boyfriend has long hair. And because I’m a metalhead, a goth, and into fantasy and roleplaying, most of my male friends have long hair as well!
To me, that is a very masculine and attractive trait.

So, please, give me more shorthaired women and longhaired men.

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I completely agree and you definitely can write good gender-flipping characters. However the one gender-flipping character I found truly great is Dandy/Daisy in Evertree Inn because there actually are some minor but meaningful differences between the two apart from gender, which in that case did help make the characters feel more alive and vivid, I guess, to me. :thinking:
Or it might simply be a testament to @ThomB 's skill as a character writer. :sweat_smile:

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I wonder if any writers have considered RO’s where the character changes completely based on gender? This was something I was considering in my WW2 French Resistance idea where players could choose to have either a downed male British RAF Pilot or a smuggled in SOE British female agent join their group with two distinctive storylines - the characters both filled a special role (albeit differently) and were the British romantic option but were also quite different characters.

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I would guess that the thinking goes like this: if you are taking the time and effort to create a character who changes so profoundly based on gender, with distinct storylines, it might be better to just go ahead and make them two different characters who both exist in the story (and give the player the choice who to hang around with, say) rather than a single character who changes their storyline based on a gender choice.

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Hmmm…I do try to give my male mc’s different looks, including long hair when I think it suits their personality and/or the time period (or closest analogue to it) that they live in. I envision my main mc in Keeper for instance to have long, glorious platinum blond hair as part of his classic pretty “angel” looks.

On this site at least the male characters seem diverse enough. As for the mainstream media it has to be “in” I guess. In the early 00’s there was a brief period where you couldn’t throw a rock in Amsterdam without hitting a long-haired guy. And of course in the previous century there were the 70’s and 80’s.

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I’m in (very) early development for my first COG, with four ROs (+1 secret RO). I’m torn on whether their genders should be based on the player’s preference, or if they should be pre-determined.

I was originally planning on preset genders (1 non-binary, 2 male, 1 female) but since the four characters have very distinct personalities, it might become a limitation for straight/homosexual players who end up wishing a certain character could’ve been a different gender & hurts their enjoyment as a result.

On the other hand, I think gender’s a pretty crucial part of creating a well-defined character, especially with perceived gender roles that can affect their motivations/behavior and whatnot. It’d help me as an author to understand my own characters better.
*Not yet sure what to do with the fifth RO if I go with completely pre-set genders. Would probably be female to even the playing field, but seeing as their route’s in the second of 2 main paths, I want the full experience to be available to everyone, which includes their romance—though obviously you can choose not to romance them as well. I don’t want to make them non-binary, to avoid stereotypes.

The original plan was to make the now n-b RO and the secret RO gender-flippable, with the remaining 3 as 2M1F. I still like the idea, but it might be odd that out of the main 4, only 1 in particular is gender-flippable. This could also have players wishing for the function to apply to all the characters, since making some ROs gender-flippable does show the story’s capability to allow players to choose an RO’s gender.

(On a different but related note, should I do 2 males and 2 females instead? It might suck if someone if who only prefers women ends up disliking the only female RO, but I also feel comfortable writing in a n-b RO—and that’s sort of the identity that that RO has taken in my head. I’m very open to opinions, though.)

Sorry if this is long and ramble-y! Thoughts?

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Personally, there’s two ways to look at it from the way I always see people explain it.

One way is that it’s your story and you should write the characters and the story you’re proud of. I agree with this. If you picture the RO’s a certain gender and can’t picture them as another one, then by all means I think you should write it that way.

On the other hand, making RO’s gender-flippable is much more inclusive to players, I also agree with this one. Personally, I like to be able to play a game and have all options available to me. And for my own game, on the writing aspect of it, it’s been pretty fun writing the two different gender paths (albeit a lot of work). You get to think of different clothing styles (if there would be any), slightly different distinguishing features, even main backstory bits that would slightly change. For me personally, it’s also made me more conscious of certain things to help me become a better writer, or so I think so.

But at the end of the day, neither of these choices is wrong. Only you can decide whether or not your story would flow well and if you would have just as much enjoyment writing gender-flippable characters as you would gender-locked characters. Do whatever you think will benefit your overall story more!

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I also struggled with this decision when planning my current WIP. I think it depends on the story, but personally I ended up making the RO’s gender non-choosable. I’m a very visual writer and trying to keep track of three different gender identities was difficult for me. Even when reading, I often find their description lacking if it’s choosable. And no hate to those writers, there are just things that need to be sacrificed with that option. It seems to be the more popular option to make it player preference, but I think it really comes down to you and your story. Character depth is important. Personally, I vote no.

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At the end of the days it’s your story so go with whatever you think works best, but I’m fine with it being not a choice if the ROs are equal gendered. I think you should try and see if works with them being gender flippable though because players who are exclusively into women or nb people are kinda out of luck if the character isn’t appealing to them. If not then its fine keeping it not a choice if it works with the story you wanna write.

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It depends on the setting and story, honestly. If gender roles play a significant role in your setting/story, you probably don’t want to make them flippable. If you’ve got an egalitarian setting where gender roles really aren’t a thing, making them flippable will improve reader inclusivity and probably widen your target audience.

Personally, I think the best way to do it is on a character by character basis. It’s okay to lock some characters because gender roles are meaningful to them and to make others flippable because they are not.

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I say it would depend on three main factors:

  1. How many ROs are there in total?
  2. Of those ROs, how many of them are male/female/non-binary/etc…?
  3. Do the ROs have a set sexual orientation or are they player-sexual?

Once you get into set genders and sexual orientations, the dating pool starts shrinking really fast and suddenly, the choice between 5 ROs can quickly whittle down to one viable option depending on who’s playing.

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I’ve done it both ways now. A lot of good stuff has been said, so I’ll just add that it takes longer. W/gender swap, it takes me 2x as long to edit and about 1.5x as long to draft in the most pronoun-intensive passages. When you project that out over the course of a year, it ends up being a considerable time commitment/delay. So, maybe that’s a consideration for you?

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What I am about to say is assuming that the romance is a side plot, if it’s the main appeal, then that’s a different conversation.

If it is only on the side then I would rather have the restrictions. I agree with all the reasons you said. My main reason I’m against it is that I read these stories to see what I would do. I cannot (legally) control whats in peoples pants. So being given that option takes me out of it, and that is why I read choicescript. Being able to choose for others just gets in the way, when I have to I just randomize it. Which also takes me out of it.

Yes you can customize yourself, and I do support that, but that is so you can put yourself into it, or another person. Even then I do sometimes choose my background at random to mix it up.

I do like side romance, but more as a way to interact with characters, though I’m not a fan of when authors put them into a protected category. I understand romances are supposed to be happy, but I want to live with my own failures, and what if you didn’t choose them? That’s another topic, but I’m just saying I’m not opposed to all romance. Just when it interferes with the main plot.

I am however opposed to people saying it has no effect on what your personality is. In the context of stories (real life is off topic.) Tomboy, and manly men still have different ascetic feels. The “don’t be such a girl.” Line from the former comes makes him come off as a traditionalist with more muscles than manners. While the latter bites much harder sounding like someone who went through many challenges to get where they are.

Same with femine females, and to put it politely the “muscularly challenged.”

Now for full on romances that are not side plots, then yeah I have no problem since that’s the whole point. Even then my opinion on hearts choice shouldn’t matter, because I don’t read it, and don’t want to read it. If I tried to control hearts choice I would either rightfully be gatekept, or others would come in and ruin it for that audience. “Do onto others as you want done onto you.” Still applies, and I don’t want people with no care or knowledge taking over my stuff, so I shouldn’t take over others.

This is getting off topic, but I hope others can understand my point of view. I do not want to attack any individual, I simply don’t want to be sex swapping reality warper (but saying it like that does make it sound fun.)

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Why not both? There is nothing saying you cannot have predetermined genders and options that flip. More so if their gender does not have a major impact in the feel, background, or impact to the story.

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I appreciate that you’re trying to find a solution, but I think that would just make things worse for both sides. We’d still be making out of character choices, and they would still be unable to pick and choose everything they want. I think a better compromise is that pure romance (IE hearts choice.) Should be able to choose. While romantic subplots should still be sex locked (or gender lock, but sex locked is a fun phrase.) This is because of reasons I mentioned in my previous message.

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Pros and cons for gender-flippable characters:
Pro - Depending on their lack of a defined sexuality, that opens up more ROs for readers to choose from.
Con - You have to create a pronoun list for every gender variable character in the startup file.
Pro - More characterization variability that can potentially make your cast of characters more diverse by virtue of not paying into gender stereotypes, casual or toxic.
Con - As I already said, it’s a lot of work. Seriously!

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I’m going to respectfully disagree. I do understand where you are coming from. It does stop the reader from picking and choosing, which sounds like it works against the point, but having both locked and swap genders provides more options to readers than strictly locking.

My perspective I suppose is on story impact then partially on giving the reader options. For some characters the gender defines who they are and what is going on with their lives, but there are plenty of characters where it could just as easily be any gender. I know that “manly”-men and tomboys do not have the same feel, but this can be fixed by having occasional custom text based on the gender of the character.

Some people read these stories/games for escapism. Giving them additional options without the cost of affecting the story seems reasonable to me. In the end you can not make everyone happy, but we read for the entertainment. It is extra work to add in swappable genders which is something that the author needs to take into consideration. This extra work really does compound over the course of the entire writing cycle. Make sure that as an author you are also entertained. Unless you want to do this professionally, then my hat goes off to you in hating your work.

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