Gay Representation in ChoiceScript games?

[Sammysam]

@Nonvita

But for any characters that don’t try to romance him, is it ok if they could go the whole game without ever realizing he’s gay?

If they never tried to romance him, I assume they probably didn’t try to get to know him, so, why should they know/want to know? If there is a friendship path with him, okay, then it could come up, but otherwise? If it isn’t natural for said character to tell others or openly flirt? And I would strongly advice you to not have him outed by another character eventually against his will…just don’t.

I mean you can have subtle hints if you want to? Maybe not obvious flirting but meaningful glances between him and other male NPCs? Or have him end up in a relationship if not romanced.
But if you say it’s not in character, don’t force it. Simple as that. Don’t make that character seem like he only exists for representation.

[Nocturnal_Stillness]

That makes me sad to read as my fondest dream is to write a RO that makes people feel the way Tali makes me feel in Mass Effect

[MockTurtle]

@Nonvita

With some of the points raised here, I can see how it could be good to have it more out in the open, but I was curious if anyone has any ideas for how to naturally reveal that a character is gay even to a non-romancing MC.

Obviously, whenever he enters a room he should say “Hello, I’m here and I’m queer”. as every gay person does.

Now seriously, I don’t think it’s a problem if it isn’t brought up if there is not a way to introduce it into the story that seems natural. I guess you could make the MC make him some question about relationships. Maybe the MC could ask him if he likes a female character and then maybe it wouldn’t be out of character for him to say “I’m not into girls”. But maybe it should only be an option for players that want to know him better.

And about the other problem, my advice is don’t change anything.
I mean if you happen to find a good reason to add another female character, you might want to consider making her straight romance option. But otherwise, Don’t do anything!

If you try to write a character thinking “I’m going to write this for straight dudes, so they can have someone to romance” the end result is probably that you will end up with a weak character that only seems to serve one function instead of being a character on their own.

[Sammysam]

@Nocturnal_Stillness

That makes me sad to read as my fondest dream is to write a RO that makes people feel the way Tali makes me feel in Mass Effect

Then make your Tali lesbian…or at least bi or don’t force my character to act straighter as they are with the female characters…I really don’t want to need to mod my game to start a romance that was already part of the game and then got cut and somehow that mostly happens with same-gender romances for “some” reason (yes bioware did all that…so many games that left me feel bitter…)

[TSSL]

@Nonvita, I’ll definitely second that delesbianizing a character is something best avoided. I wouldn’t be too concerned with the balance you have, but if you had ideas for an additional option, even a smaller one, it wouldn’t hurt, per se. Up to you.

Now, as for the gay male character, this is going depend a whole lot on the setting and the character himself. One thing to note is that a lot of heterosexual people do “out” themselves (disclaiming that bisexuality could still apply) rather frequently without really thinking about it, just by talking about who they find cute, or talking about who they’re dating, married to, what actor they find dreamy, etc. Gay people totally can do all those same things. Of course, just like some hetero people are really boy-crazy or girl-crazy, and some don’t care to talk about it much, the same applies to gay people as well.

But I can think of plenty of ways I’ve “come out” to different people (it really is an ongoing thing)…
Well, one thing I’ve referred to is my “coming out anniversary,” though given discussion of “coming out stories” that might not be the best place to focus but it can be fun to celebrate. I also mentioned a lot of times my involvement in the LGBTQ-straight alliance at the college I went to, though that didn’t itself indicate my orientation. But if it is similar to our society, some characters might be able to talk about stuff with gay social issues then, hmm, there is a time I kinda sorta asked out a heterosexual guy (it was a little veiled), so, that happens sometimes. Ah, and sometimes something as subtle as a conversation with people talking about what they’d like their wedding to be like, and I’d refer to my future husband rather than my future wife

Anyway, I think a takeaway is that you don’t have to force it… if you do, it’ll likely sound forced. If you write him naturally, there’s plenty of ways his interestin men could come up in conversation casually… just as it often does for heterosexual people. And if none of that would fit his personality, well, then that’s the way he is, and that’s fine.

Edit: Well, and as you can see, me being gay comes up all the time on this forum, either because I’m actively talking about gay representation (as now) or just because I’m talking about how cute various male characters are

@Nonvita

(I’m sorry if anything I said was not the best phrasing,

Nothing seemed amiss to me I appreciate your asking.

[Nocturnal_Stillness]

I thought that was what people meant by using bioware as an example of what was not to do. I just liked how the Tali romance felt if you get what I mean. When @Lizzy talks about Denise I get the feeling I’m getting close to the feeling. Just need to keep practising and writing.

[Sammysam]

@Nocturnal_Stillness

When @Lizzy talks about Denise I get the feeling I’m getting close to the feeling. Just need to keep practising and writing.

Yeah, Denise is certainly a very good example. She and Sarah are my favorite ROs in Unnatural.

@Nocturnal_Stillness

I just liked how the Tali romance felt if you get what I mean.

No, I don’t because I can’t stand playing male!shep, but I wish I could, just for Tali and Jack (I tried I really did but the voice acting alone was enough to turn me off)

[ParrotWatcher]

@Sammysam

No. Don’t.

I do feel that there are games where turning all characters bi can actually improve the game, even at the expense of canonical gay characters (I mentioned one of them above), but it doesn’t sound like this is one of them (as long as the gay and bi guy are cuter than the straight guy , and the straight guy isn’t obviously the most important character of them all). Changing the non-RO to an RO would probably be better here.

@Nonvita

By that I mean that my gay male character is definitely not the flamboyant stereotype, but he’s also not really one to talk about past relationships and things like that, so other than only being romanceable by male MCs, there’s nothing that particularly says he’s gay to, say, a straight male MC.

I guess he could still mention it in passing. Or maybe he could blush when he sees a cute guy, or something like that?

@MockTurtle

If you try to write a character thinking “I’m to write this for straight dudes, so they can have someone to romance” the end result is probably that you will end up with a weak character that only seems to serve one function instead of being a character on your own.

I don’t know; I kinda like the idea that it’s the straight guys who get the weak, meaningless, tacked-on romance for once.

[TSSL]

@ParrotWatcher

I guess he could still mention it in passing. Or maybe he could blush when he sees a cute guy, or something like that?

Yeah, that sort of thing. Really, what I want to get at is that we see casual references to heterosexuality all the time, it’s just that most people don’t notice this because we’re so used to it as part of the background of life. Just try noting it in everyday conversation, movies, books and the like… the number will rise pretty quickly. So… gay people should get to talk about all this the same way heterosexuals do. (It’s just that a lot of times when we do exactly the same stuff heterosexual people do, people act as if we’re “flaunting it” or “shoving it down their throat” or otherwise making a big deal about it )

So I guess in the context of writing, it might depend on how much your heterosexual characters are making reference to that… do you have people talking about crushes, spouses, any of that kind of thing? Or do none of your characters really reference any of this stuff at all anyway? (Also allowing variation for individual personality )

[idonotlikeusernames]

@TSSL

(It’s just that a lot of times when we do exactly the same stuff heterosexual people do, people act as if we’re “flaunting it” or “shoving it down their throat” or otherwise making a big deal about it )

That’s really why the end-goal of gay advocacy should be to make being gay just as boring, mundane and pedestrian as being straight. If a culture reaches that stage that would also be the point where affirmative action, extra hate speech laws, compensation for some historical wrongs, etc would no longer be necessary.
Yep, if gay guys in particular act like our straight counterparts we’re apparently “shoving our sexuality and the LGBTQ agenda down their throats”.

[Nonvita]

Wow, thank you so much for your thoughts everyone, it’s really helpful for me. Sometimes even the simplest suggestions that feel like “Duh” just get lost in the process of writing after thinking and overthinking everything so much.

@MockTurtle

Obviously, whenever he enters a room he should say “Hello, I’m here and I’m queer”. as every gay person does.

goes to change character intro… Oh god I wouldn’t. I guess you’re right, it’ll probably just be something that mostly comes up for players who get to know him. Maybe just a few other subtle hints here and there. And I’m still thinking about another female, but I’ll try not to just make Biglips McBreastenlargement if I do.

@TSSL

One thing to note is that a lot of heterosexual people do “out” themselves (disclaiming that bisexuality could still apply) rather frequently without really thinking about it, just by talking about who they find cute, or talking about who they’re dating, married to, what actor they find dreamy, etc.

Good point, I’ll keep it in mind. (I think I’m just mostly oblivious to a lot of this stuff in real life too haha.)

@TSSL

I’d refer to my future husband rather than my future wife

My bi male character has already claimed this conversation

@ParrotWatcher

(as long as the gay and bi guy are cuter than the straight guy , and the straight guy isn’t obviously the most important character of them all)

They absolutely are. Actually I’m having to work on the straight guy to bring out some of his more likeable qualities… I don’t know why but he’s so far refusing to cooperate.

@ParrotWatcher

I don’t know; I kinda like the idea that it’s the straight guys who get the weak, meaningless, tacked-on romance for once.

My only romance currently available for straight dudes is probably not the romance that 99% of straight dudes are going to want (because I’m slightly basing her on my personality type ). But I love her so much I’m not really sorry.

@TSSL

(Also allowing variation for individual personality )

Yeah, I like your point and I’ll try to get the characters to open up with more banter over the course of the story, as well as incorporate “background noise” like news stories, gossip, etc.

[ashestoashes018]

Re: coming out. One of the best things DA:I did in reference to romance was to have Dorian come out very naturally. He still flirted with female Inquisitors, he still had witty banter, but when he finally trusted the Inquisitor enough, he explained why he was really NC with his family.

It was beautiful and moving. Have I mentioned I really, really, really love Dorian?

I’d like to write a romance like that in a CS game (and i have)

[idonotlikeusernames]

This won’t be a game for me then, not even if the male RO’s get twice the content each of the female ones do.
Still if the author is set on it, this would be a Hosted Game and they have looser guidelines, including RO balance.

[idonotlikeusernames]

It does mean your RO’s are unbalanced and heavily skewed by a ration of 2:1 towards the female side and that you fall into the unfortunate and predominant social narrative that attraction to women is more common, priced and valuable then attraction to men.

[Spire]

I have a suggestion for an easy solution to this: Remove the option to romance any 3 of the females and political correctness is re-established.

As you can tell I’m in the ‘author’s prerogative’ camp on this. If a certain character’s personality goes this way in the author’s head and their gender goes that way why can’t that just be the way they feel about their creation? I honestly plain don’t understand the issue. Maybe all the female ROs turn out crap while the males are all awesome. Maybe market forces prove someone right or wrong. But you can’t place demands on artistic expression.

[idonotlikeusernames]

@Spire

I have a suggestion for an easy solution to this: Remove the option to romance any 3 of the females and political correctness is re-established.

Honestly, that’s certainly one way to go. Sometimes less can be more after all.

@Spire

Maybe all the female ROs turn out crap while the males are all awesome.

With the ratio’s of the game it would still make them the “token gay option(s)” particularly if the artistic vision of the author also dictates two of them are exclusively straight.

“Artistic integrity” happens to be the bullcrap argument every major game developer uses these days to present us with token gay options, if that.
So naturally I don’t have the most patience with it when it is used as a way to promote and justify pervasive inequality and marginalization of certain groups of people, including gay men.

[Urban]

@idonotlikeusernames

It does mean your RO’s are unbalanced and heavily skewed by a ration of 2:1 towards the female side and that you fall into the unfortunate and predominant social narrative that attraction to women is more common, priced and valuable then attraction to men.

There is another game where gays guys have 5 options and straight guys have 2 and I didn’t see that commotion.
It is not like you will not have any option, you will have 3, so what if lesbians will have 6 options? It doesn’t affect your playtrough, you still have 3 guys to romance.

[Spire]

@idonotlikeusernames

“Artistic integrity” happens to be the bullcrap argument every major game developer uses these days to present us with token gay options, if that.

So naturally I don’t have the most patience with it when it is used as a way to promote and justify pervasive inequality and marginalization of certain groups of people, including gay men.

Except that this isn’t a big company aiming to please the lowest common denominator with some added minority outreach. I understand your problem on an intellectual level but I’d argue that this is not thr venue where it’s mostly applicable. Hosted Games are almost by definition products of passion rather than economical endeavours aren’t they? This is not an EA game.

[idonotlikeusernames]

@Urban

There is another game where gays guys have 5 options and straight guys have 2 and I didn’t see that commotion.

A finished one or a WIP? If so, which one.
Still even if that is true I can find male/female romance focused games or other focused games that happen to feature m/f romance as an extra feature very easily. Finding quality gay ones, particularly outside specifically m/m focused games, of which there are only a comparative handful to begin with is much, much harder.

@Spire

Except that this isn’t a big company aiming to please the lowest common denominator with some added minority outreach. I understand your problem on an intellectual level but I’d argue that this is not thr venue where it’s mostly applicable.

CoG is a company, its size is a secondary consideration and they do have to know that the Hosted Games reflect upon them as well, even if they are very committed to promoting inclusiveness in their main line of products.

@Spire

Hosted Games are almost by definition products of passion rather than economical endeavours aren’t they?

Honestly they straddle the line, like many jobs including my day one does, between passion and profitability and there are people here like @Cataphrak who make their living off of it. If they start showing the same behaviour as some major corporations expect me to call them out on it too.

@Spire

This is not an EA game.

I can’t argue with that. But I don’t want to see Hosted Games ending up as EA-lite in the sort of content they peddle, particularly when it comes to including minorities either.

[idonotlikeusernames]

@resuri08

If the author wants only three male ROs, we cannot forced them to do what we want. This is their own creation after all.

@Cecile

I don’t want to be rude, but I don’t understand why you continue to push the issue. It’s her game, her time and her effort. She can choose to do whatever she wants with her game. She doesn’t owe us anything. We also don’t know many things about the characters.

Point taken. @Eiwynn @Havenstone please move my last couple of posts to whatever representation/ gay issues topic is currently open. And with that it is time for me to follow @ParrotWatcher and bow out of the discussion of this project.

@Cecile

There are many games where the male to female ratio is 5:1, you can play those instead.

True, and in most of them the only romance, if romance is present at all for the main most often male mc, is the one or maybe two females. Basically the story of most games of my youth.