Game of Thrones TV SHOW (spoilers)


#330

I’ve had just about enough of the whole:

What advice? “Don’t do what he wants you to do.”?

If she had said something about Rickon being used to have Jon within the longbows’ range, that would count as useful advice.

https://youtu.be/JzsHDOJToIM?t=187

Jon point-blank asks her “What should I do differently?” Her response: “I don’t know! I don’t know anything about battles.

Nailed it.


#331

It is tiny, and Dany is the 4th to bring an army across although the first time around there was still a land bridge which the Children of the Foreat sank into the ocean in a futile effort to stop more humans from coming across. So maybe that first invasion doesn't count since they didn't use ships that time.

The last time around it was Dany's ancestor Aegon the Conqueror, who brought dragons as well as an army across the channel from Valyria and founded the Targaryen royal line of Westeros.


#332

Aegon launched his invasion from Dragonstone, not from the ruins of Old Valyria.


#333

True, but the Targaryens did originally come from the continent of Essos, and at the time they settled in Dragonstone it was still part of Valyria. So they did make the crossing, albeit in 2 hops.


#334

So...basically what she is doing now? :smiley: How many years ago was that?


#335

A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

...oh wait.


#336

Like over 300 years ago. It´s known as Aegon´s Conquest.


#337

To be a bit more precise, the events of the story start exactly two years before the 300th anniversary of the Conquest.


#338

Well they were two long, long hops IIRC. The Doom happened something like 100 years before Aegon invaded Westeros. Meaning it wasn't an invasion across the Narrow Sea, it was just Aegon being like 'Well I'm a well trained and somewhat experienced tactician, and I have dragons, so I'm just going to try my hand at being the most powerful human being alive.' Aegon's army was like 3000 or so people, the bulk of his power came from having the only three dragons left in the world.


#339

Well, it was pretty close to 300 years when Robert´s Rebellion raged out so...If A Game Of Thrones happens like 14 years after it and A Dance With Dragons adds at least other 3 years...I think, if I made my math right, that I was accurate enough...Maybe


#340

Well, yes. That was the advice, and he ignored it by doing exactly Ramsay wanted to him to do.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not slamming Jon. He did all the heavy lifting. But credit is due where credit is due. If he had listened to Sansa instead of trying to save Rickon and blindly leaping into Ramsay's trap, he wouldn't have taken so many losses.

She didn't claim to know anything about battles, but she did claim to know more about the enemy than the others did.


#341

Well, I mean, that's not really advice. That's military common sense 101. If she'd given him advice, it woulda been something like, "yo, hold up, big bastard brother mine. I'm working an angle to even the playing field with an assload of cavalry," or, "yo, pretty sure fuckstick is just gonna kill Rickon in front of us, be prepared for that. Don't do anything dumb, and make sure the giant restrains you."


#342

If we had three seasons left, or even two full seasons left, I'd guess/hope that Littlefinger gets the throne, at least for a few episodes but sadly I don't think there's time for that to happen. Poor Littlefinger.

I have to say that almost every character on GoT makes the most of their limited screen time: the Hound, Littlefinger, Varys, Olenna Tyrell, the list goes on and on .Most of them are interesting enough to carry much more screen time (and they would, in a normal show).


#343

Wow is this really true? I haven't read any of the extended books and only the first 4 or so books of the series, but it sounds like the exact same story as now! Minus the zombies.


#344

I'm like 80% sure. It's been awhile, but I think Barristan Selmy was talking to Dany about how Aegon had a small army but won the war for Westeros with ease because of his dragons. He gained a much larger army after Storm's End, Highgarden, Harrenhal, and Casterly Rock fell, but when he started out all he had almost nothing.

Edit: *1600 people. His army started with a little over half of my guess,


#345

Well, he started the Conquest with 3000 people but many houses supoported him from the get go so his forces grew to 8000 or so. Then he subdued other houses and took the North...It was pretty much over after that. Dorne was the only Kingdom that did not subdue.


#346

She said Rickon wasn't making it out alive, which was accurate. Jon tried to save him anyway.

She couldn't have predicted exactly how Ramsay was going to do it, and again, knows little of strategy or military matters.

Vague as her advice was, it was still good advice that should have been followed.


#347

Exactly. Credit is due where credit is due. Jon did all the lifting.

Hold on a minute. You can’t claim she knows him better than the others and at the same time say she couldn’t possibly know how he might lure Jon into a trap. I guess you did but that doesn’t make any sense. If she had said as little as “Hey, he might use Rickon as bait”, I would agree with you in saying she gave good advice.

Nailed it.

If Sansa had revealed the cavalry that was about to join them they would have been in a much better position to negotiate or enforce their demands. Withholding information was a critical blunder that has to be acknowledged before crediting her for any “advice” she may or may not have given. This thing about withholding information that would change how we look at a situation is true in all aspects of life so I don’t want to hear anything about her knowing little of military matters or any other excuse.

Nope. If an advice is going to be any good it can’t be vague.

Let’s say you have a manual on how to build a bookshelf and the instructions on how to build it are vague. Is the manual any good?

Let’s say a doctor writes you a prescription for something but no one is able to make out what it says, is the prescription any good even though no one can read it?

Let’s say you ask someone for a recipe to make some dish and the other person says “Just make sure everything tastes good.” Is that recipe/advice, as vague as it is, any good? Should you still follow that recipe?


#348

There's a difference between instructions and advice.

Would you say that "be brave" is bad advice? Or "don't trust Littlefinger?"

Vague doesn't necessarily = unhelpful or wrong.

Sansa told Jon about Ramsay and Rickon; he choose to disregard her words of warning and try to save Rickon and face Ramsay head on, on Ramsay's terms, anyway. It's that simple.

Sansa knew more about the enemy than they did. Not more about strategy or tactics, but more about who exactly they were dealing with. Again, it's that simple.

She could have tried to guess, but no, you can't really predict what a trickster is going to do anymore than you can predict what a guy like Littlefinger is going to do. You just know, from experience of them, that they're going to try and trick you. That they're not to be underestimated. That Rickon was as good as dead already. All Jon had to do is apply what she said to the fairly obvious situation that arose: do I try to save Rickon? Do I rush forward to fight? No, I think Sansa was right after all; this is Ramsay trying to trap me.

I'm not denying that Sansa made a mistake too. I'm saying they both did. Still, a lot of people seem to be biased in Jon's favour. I give him credit for fighting so hard, but you do remember that he was losing, right? You can try to pin that on Sansa if you want, but ultimately, Jon, the leader, made a bad decision and disregarded good advice.


#349

Did we watch the same episode? Jon fell for Ramsay's trap, which cost him at least 2/3 of his men's lives. He would have died again had Sansa not arrived with Littlefinger and the KotV.

Say what you will about Sansa not telling Jon, but it was her actions that won the battle.