Unfortunately, by referring to the words that we choose to identify ourselves with as such “robotic” and “lifeless” things (knowing that those words are loaded, as nb people are regularly demeaned with similar if not those exact words), as if yours are superior and more human and not just picked out of personal preference, you pull a faux pas.
Perhaps it’s not how you meant it, but it’s certainly how it’s coming across.
Snoe is nb and intersex (androygne, hermaphrodite). They already know this. Or should.
All I tried to do was explain that Intersex and Androgyny are not the same thing, if Snoe wishes to continue to use both words to describe the same thing, fine. It is not correct and a tad offensive. If Snoe wishes to continue being demeaning, fine.
It’s all fine as long as we are talking about it applying to ONE person. It is not acceptable to knowingly demean other people, which is what is going to happen if Snoe adds and uses incorrect terms in their game.
Either way, @Laguz is making far better points that I(more aggressively though) . It’s a simple enough solution of, use correct terms or don’t include them to begin with, since it is going to be affecting a number of people, not just Snoe.
Re: 4197, 4198, anf 4199. @Snoe, @Laguz Wolfsra basically said everything right. (Well, other than some slight phrasing on terms, but Laguz got to that below. So, if you don’t mind, I’m just going to borrow their words.)
Now, for some further discussion.
Terms have meanings, and they aren’t arbitrary. There’s two things we need to keep in mind with being respectful. 1) respecting the individual, and 2) respecting the community. We often times conflate the two, but they are two separate things. Respecting the individual means, yes, you can call yourself whatever, and it should be expected that people will respect that. If you want to call yourself X, where X is commonly accepted as being a dated or slightly offensive term (e.g. hermaphrodite, or transsexual), okay, you get to do that (obv. w/in limits). However, you don’t get to use the terms to describe someone else, and you don’t get to use them for the community at large. That’s what it means to respect the community.
Intersex, androgyne, nonbinary, are all related terms, yes, but they are also have their own individual meanings and conflating one to mean another is incorrect. Let me pull from my personal background as an analogy. Most people should understand that Native American is an umbrella term for a bunch of different tribes, who have a shared history in a lot of respects, some related values, and (generally) see eye to eye on things, even if methodology changes from tribe to tribe, and there are some internal rivalries. We also know that each tribe has it’s own history, and that people can have mixed heritages. However, if when talking about someone from the Lakota tribe we used the term ‘Cherokee’, we should all be able to see that is blatantly incorrect, and insisting you like the term better is, well, I think the analogy holds up there. Even if both are Native Americans, they are still different, and that difference matters. It matters to the people that use the terms to describe themselves, and it should matter to other people too.
We talk about respect a lot when it comes to terms, but we don’t really get into what we are respecting too often. There are actually two sides to this respect. First, we respect the individual, and second we respect the community. If you want to call yourself X, where X is commonly considered dated (transsexual), or offensive (hermaphrodite) (obv. there is limit here for some terms), that’s one thing. That’s you’re right as an individual. However, you still have to respect the community. That means, yes, you don’t get to call other people the wrong terms, but it also means that you need to use the right terms to describe things in general because it sets ideas and precedent, and informs people that only periodically run across things.
Now, as to the other side of the coin: @Laguz what do you think was accomplished today? Do you think there’s more representation? Less? Better? Worst? I think that all we’ve potentially done is lost some level of representation, and we both know that what’s already out there is a crap shoot of decent to reductionist drivel (just was reading something from someone on the Danish Girl). I don’t believe this has really done anything beneficial, and in fact a chance to raise the bar for representation is, well, I won’t say lost because I think @Snoe is mature enough to understand that one person getting angry doesn’t represent everyone, but it’s at the very least a lot further away than it was at first. Yes, Snoe was wrong on something, but I think that correcting is an improvement over pushing away, even, and maybe even especially, when we’re talking with people already on board in the community. Do you disagree?
As an aside, I’ve recently run across the term enby (it was one of the boxes on the center I go to), but not being nonbinary, I don’t really know what’s good, better, best. I think it’s very much in the direction of what @Snoe is looking for.
And, one fine thing L, could we not throw around slurs, even to make a point?
Now, I’m going to unlock this, and we’re going to remain polite when/if we continue, okay?
If the discussion continues it won’t be here ‘it’s not the proper place’.
And thanks for your involvement @RETowers.
I think it’s best we move back onto the topic at hand.
A progress report:
-I’ve come to the very last choice of the obstacle course. So I’ve to code and write three beaches there along with success failure portions.
-I’ve made clarifications in some of the more obscure portions of the story
-filled out more of the Vyde shopping guide experience
AND
-started at Silic’s resurgence
Lastly I wont be updating it until I have filled the current holes. Obstacle course and Vyde shopping.
I might not want to continue the conversation, but I am expecting a public apology for all of us other nbs here, you know. For you to actually show you’ve taken in what @RETowers has said to you.
More on topic though, I can’t wait to see what kind of mischief First can start getting into once their finished giving their guides a possible heart-attack with their nonchalant behavior to baring skin (I can see that becoming a bit of a running gag with Empathy and Trouble-Maker First in particular).
I’ll be honest I am super excited for Vyde’s shopping, as much as I love our residential man of secrets and princely dragon, Vyde just has that lovely bit of sass I just adore. x3 But I’m excited about everything <3 So I’ll just sit here happily waiting. (there will probably be a little bouncing involved int his waiting, though.XP )
Channel all the rotten Sass dear Snoe, ALL the sass~ <3 It’s worth the wait, Vyde has been one of my faves since the first draft you posted up of the game. ^____^ But then again those who push at the societal norms and are just a touch rotten sassy dolls are my fave types of characters.
I created a profile just so I could comment on this and tell you how much I love it! The idea of a mute MC is a really interesting one. I have completely fallen in love with First!
All of the characters are very well written and fleshed out. They each have their own personality and don’t seem to fit into generic stereotypes, at least in my opinion. I think I am in the minority when I say that Empathy and Silic are my two favourite characters that have appeared! Silic just makes my has my First torn between becoming besties or the ultimate trouble making couple. My First just loves to see how much teasing it will take for Empathy to finally jump her.
Anyway, I just wanted to say your characters and world are incredible. I scream like a fan-girl everytime I see there is an update. Keep up the amazing work!
Same here friend! This is one of my favorite games in progress so far!! It’s really interesting to read from a deaf person as I am half-deaf in real life. It’s also really cool @Snoe that you included sign language in this game Also I love the Star Wars reference in your name as well!
. It’s a simple enough solution of, use correct terms or don’t include them to begin with, since it is going to be affecting a number of people, not just Snoe.
