Absolutely, it’s been done countless of times. Batman and Catwoman what?
I support you \o/
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@Infel and @saggittarius
Just imo, I think people mean different things when they talk about “hero/villain romance” or “enemies to lovers” tropes. I could be wrong, it’s just my take on it.
I think generally “enemies to lovers” tropes usually involve characters who have conflicting goals and who clash over those conflicting goals (probably with a lot of snark/banter, flirting, double entendres, etc) and who experience growing chemistry and perhaps end up working out a way to resolve their conflict while pursuing a relationship. But I don’t think either of those characters’ goals is typically 'bad" or “good,” they’re just inconsistent with one another’s.
I can definitely appreciate stories like that.
But as was discussed earlier, my definition of “romance” is a mostly healthy, non-toxic real relationship. Sure there can be some conflicts along the way (it’s so boring without them), but those conflicts can’t be the Hero Partner saying, “Hey Villain Partner, you slaughtered the City Council yesterday, all 18 of them on live television. I really think we need to talk about how this affects our relationship going forward. Oh, and do you want Thai for dinner?” 
I’m not being sarcastic, I’m just confused about how people think this would even work in a logical way that doesn’t make the Hero Partner look like a raging psychopath.
And there are a lot of nuances (imo) when it comes to writing romance in the context of superheroes/villains, with stories that necessarily involve a lot of violence…to that point…
When does it become an issue of domestic violence? That’s a legitimate question for me. Let’s say you have hero and villain “dating” but they argue about something and villain ends up attacking the hero or knocking out the hero? I mean…isn’t that the definition of DV?
The very backbone of the story is that your MC and your arch enemy clash for 2 or 3 decades. Your MC is allowed to be violent toward your arch enemy, as is evidenced by the very first scene where you can slap them or kick them around while they are helpless. It is heavily hinted that your MC is going to kill them. Weaving a romance subplot into this dynamic is…just not workable.
All of this being said, will there be a possibility of your MC perhaps dating a different hero (someone not your archenemy?) Maybe! I have NOT ruled that out at all! BUT…I would almost certainly place some limitations on that, meaning that your Kill Count would have to be very, very, very low (maybe zero?) to insert some level of realism into the story. No hero is going to seek a romance with a mass murderer.
But I could maybe see it happening between a hero and a ‘villain’ who doesn’t kill, who pursues more noble goals (like political change) or even who’s just seeking a payday so they can retire. There are shades of grey there, for sure, but I would need to draw a line somewhere obviously. I would VERY MUCH appreciate people helping me explore and delineate those fine lines.
On a slightly related note, does anyone know how many people Catwoman has killed? I think that is a super interesting question and I have no clue what the range would be.
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Back in an old demo we had Fox, who was more of anti-hero who did not really bad but still bad things to make the world a better place (in their own twisted vision but still). Is a character like them still planned for the future or our cycle of allies will be consisted of actual villains who you really can’t trust in your right mind?
I guess it really depends on the universe we are in? As far as I remember, Catwoman is a thief, so if possible, she won’t kill anyone. It’s not a Tali situation, where Batman wants to date a literal assassin. At least in Arkham universe, she hasn’t killed a single soul (although she did try to kill Two-Faced that one time but Batman stops her), she mostly just steals shit and fucks over people she doesn’t like.
@Eric_Moser Thanks for an answer! As you said, this story should represent 10~30 years of rivalry, so yea it would be kinda weird to have everyone show up at the beginning . I feel like being an Injustice League leader can be an endgame for some MCs so it would be cool to meet different solo villains and decide who will join you to fight against our Nemesis and perhaps their team. Anyway, can’t wait for un update and good luck with this project!
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Yeah, Volpe is basically Gold Fox, a charming mid-40s alcoholic with some unresolved vendettas against various groups. He likes to blow shit up. His origin/motivation is: Human/Political Change.
Putty Queen is Tech/Hedonism.
Vala is Alien/Knowledge
Dr. Glass is Experiment/Domination.
And Shade (from the first version of the game) will pop up soon; as Magic/Anarchy.
So they represent a spread of Origins/Motivations. I was originally going to have the 4 of them (other than Shade) know each other already, but I’m thinking maybe I’ll have them be strangers and give the MC a chance to “put a team together” if MC so chooses. I can’t really introduce 10 villains in Part 1; that’s too many, and I need room to introduce a few heroes and civilians too, so if there’s going to be any chance for an Injustice League sort of thing, I need to be careful with how and when I introduce other baddies.
(Plus Murder Cat is definitely going to pop up when your MC doesn’t expect it)
And thanks for the Catwoman info; that’s pretty much as I understood her character.
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I actually had wrote a long reply yesterday when people were talking about the hero/villain romance…but then just decided not to post it lol
Then you later came and said the same suggestion of how I would implement it here.
The reason Catwoman and Black Cat in Marvel with Spiderman are doable is because yeah they haven’t “crossed that line” for the hero and the heroes don’t see them as that bad and maybe even be able to turnaround. It varies on what continuity of them, but I think majority of the time Catwoman has not murdered.
I had suggested put requirements to beginning a relationship like that and like you already said with having a political villain who only attacks mostly corrupt people since that would be the only way to do it. The hero in that situation could even be more of an anti-hero so it would feel more natural. Kind of like Jason Todd in some continuities after he’s brought back as Red Hood, before he comes back to the light and does things Batman’s way. Willing to kill villains for the greater good like crime bosses.
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see what you described for me for enemies to lovers would be what i considered “rivals to lovers”. for me personally i do not consider it an enemies to lovers relationship unless the pairing has at least one genuine murder attempt against each other or are fundamentally different in terms of morality/opposing sides.
i think a good example aside from batman and cat woman for hero/villain would be hannibal lector and clarisse starling from silence of the lamb/hannibal or alina starkov and the darkling from the shadow and bones novel where it doesn’t necessarily have to be a /relationship/ where they are outright dating, it doesn’t need to be healthy, there doesn’t need to be a happy ending(hannibal and clarisse only had a “good” reciprocating ending in the novel not the movie and i like both) but there’s attraction there or an obsession against themselves, a push and pull, a love-hate romantic undertone but that is clearly unhealthy and toxic. if i had to offer some examples from other COG or HG here, fallen hero (sidestep and ortega in particular are 
) and soul stone war (one of the love interest is the big bad) definitely are a good examples.
again i want to stress that i’m not trying to convince you to add one in if it is against your vision. just that as someone who has consumed primarily a variety of romantic fiction and interactive fiction (otome games, rpgs, visual novels, etc) i’m just offering some perspective that if you were to do one it could just be like subtext/undercurrent throughout the relationship and i’m sure there would be people who would be into that. in fact i think the intimate option you had for your game already had like, hints that can be read as subtext already if i’m honest though i don’t know if that was intentional on your end haha.
that said i definitely hope i don’t sound like i’m trying to be pushy/pick a fight because i started following your wip because of the strangely intimate options for the villain protag vs the hero at the start so to hear later that might not be intentional at all did make me feel a little surprised.
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In my opinion, game doesn’t really need enemy to lovers trope, seeing as we already have so many games that did great work in that regard, half of them being about superheroes too. I am completely fine with no Hero ROs, or a sort of secret Romancable Hero which, to get, you have to play very specifically. I still remember Mecha Ace and its rival (Hawk I believe was their name) with a secret romance option and to get it you basically had to look it up in a guide, because every choice mattered, they didn’t even have any sort of achievement for it. I’m more interested in MC x civilian sort of deal, I don’t remember seeing that sort of thing anywhere, and it sounds super interesting! I don’t really know how to make it non-toxic to be honest, maybe have them being a reporter or some random person who doesn’t really know we are a super-villain? 
Again, not saying the game should absolutely have something like that, just writing down my own opinion. 
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This is a great discussion. Everyone has been respectful and thoughtful, and honestly that’s what I expect from people here.
@Infel you don’t have to apologize for anything; I haven’t read anything you said to be trying to convince me or trying to argue with me. I appreciate your viewpoint. And although I don’t have any interest in writing a toxic type of relationship (or even toxic hookups), I will say that the “Intimate” choices for your MC are definitely signed to show that your MC is obsessed with your archenemy in an ‘overly familiar’ way. Your MC might make flirty or perverted or obsessive comments throughout the story, but nothing would violate consent in any sexual way, and the hero would not reciprocate in any way; they think your MC is, well, pretty fucked up, I would say. BUT…I think some people will enjoy their MC being a bit perverted or obsessed, and if so, I say have at it.
@Elseguard exactly. There’s a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig freakin’ difference between Batman dating Catwoman and Batman dating…Zsasz. Which I assume the later hasn’t happened.
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I’m late to the dance, and I’m playing the demo…
But are human (as background) being suggested as the best? (again)
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Eh, I was aiming to make Humans…different…but not better or worse necessarily. It’s all about the math, which I will keep crunching and probably tweaking as the game develops.
You give up the ‘auto pass’ of having a superpower Battery, which is a big deal.
But your die rolls have a much better chance of succeeding and the extra Skill you start with gives you a 14% chance of an ‘auto pass’ since there are 14 Skills and I rotate two in each mission.
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Your game has a lot of potentiel, but the amount of ‘Stuff’ kinda crippl it. Well crippl it for peoples like me. I’m not saying it’s bad. Just the stuff are kinda a downer for peoples like me.
The ‘Stuff’ are pretty much the amount of things one have to keep in mind as they play.
Oh no, here a scene! Pick a choice: Wait…do I have Charisma or was it STR?
Remind me of Archangel game.
Also, what is Alter ego? I got that as a choice but…what is it?
Hm and last? For a villain game it is a bit tame 
I was hoping to reincarnate as Orochimaru but yeah, don’t seem like that gonna happen .
Anyway, these are my feedbacks. Take them with some Salt 
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Yep there are a lot of mechanics. My vision is for a 50/50 balance between story and game. It’s okay that it’s not for you! We all have difference preferences; I take no offense.
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I never said I wasnt going to play it lol I just said its a pain for me…cause numbers.
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You ought to see my spreadsheets. Geez.
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Honestly, I was kinda annoyed by the whole dice systems here because it means possible fails every once in a while. It just that I got used to the fact that whenever I play these stats-based games I always have an infinite time to think about the best possible decision for my MC and, if I did not fuck up with said stats, always knew they would succeed no matter what. But here, I think, it was made very cool. You always have a choice to use your Powers which are guaranteed victory but will always waste your battery that will eventually run out, a 14% chance that the skills that you choose for your character will actually be useful, and you can always roll dice to test your luck with basic stat check (also Plot Armor but we do not talk about it). It made me realize that we ARE playing as a villain, and it would be weird to see the said villain to absolutely dominate everything for 10~30 years and not loose a single time. It wouldn’t be much of a rivalry, so I grew to like it. Will love to see how this system will be used in a future! 
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With that in mind, would you perhaps consider a type of romance where the villain turns the hero? I don’t mean this in the abusive way of a Harley Quinn or many other enemies to lovers storylines (cough Samurai of Hyuga), but perhaps a scenario where our villain encounters a hero who’s already willing to tow the line a little, flirts with them or comes on to them somehow, and suddenly triggers a rational realization in the hero that “hey, the life of a villain beats the hell out of being a hero.” From that point, their relationship could be one where the hero’s heroism is a front done to help the villain. There wouldn’t be as much of a moral grey area issue, and a mass murderer villain could find heroic romance just fine.
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@Kungoru I really appreciate it! I am (finally) very pleased with the mechanics - I think they can support a rather robust story at this point.
@TheGhost It’s an interesting idea. I need to give more thought to the parameters I would put on hero/MC relationships. It gives me a lot to think about, so thank you. (But the ‘hero’ in such a situation wouldn’t be the archenemy, to be clear).
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Well, you could always make a hero a secret ro meaning that you have to have certain play-through as mentioned before.
The option for hero romance could be that they met each other as normal people and i.e. political change!mc (so that they are not mass murderer lmao) could then later find about their alter ego or something - it depends whenever the hero’s real name is public or not (cause I don’t think that was specified(?))
But it’s just an idea 
Hopefully you are not stressed much with this hero romance stuff <3
edit: by hero I meant the archenemy
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Oh yeah, it should definitely be someone other than the archenemy. There are plenty of heroes in the world to make up.
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Has there been any update?
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