Eight Thrones (Working Title)


#1

I’ve started another game (I’m not quitting Aeon Sage, but it is on hold for the moment).

Currently what I have is mostly just a teaser (~200 lines with no actual choices yet), but I’m going to work on this every single night even if it kills me.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/45314691/CoG%20Games/8Thrones.html

One thing to note that this will be a very dark setting (depending of course, on your own idea’s of what actually constitutes ‘dark’), and I’ll be touching on, to some extent, pretty much every ‘bad’ aspect of medieval time period (from slavery to women as non-citizens to incompetent and even crazy rulers to huge bloody battles that left the lower classes in ruins), and that some NPC’s actions (and even some options for the PC) may be at least relatively disturbed. Also note that the setting will not be ‘gender neutral’ and that female PCs will have a slightly to substantially different play through than male PCs. That’s not to say it will be significantly harder (or easier), just different.


#2

If your going basic feducal structure your father should be a baron not count, liege lord only count.


#3

@Rogar, True (at least in point, as a liege lord could actually be someone farther up the line that the baron owed direct allegiance to, at least to my understanding).

I’m bastardizing a few concepts (well… probably more than a few) for the sake of both the narrative and my own sanity (feudal relationships were complex to say the least). I may actually change that over to just lord (wait… or is that liege… oh geez I can already feel the headache >.< ) later on, but right now it’s just (incorrectly used) ‘flavor’. Specifically I’m doing away with the concept of minor noble owning parcels of land in my different locations, and therefore having different ‘lords’ and one ‘liege lord’.

(Also: Just realized that I forgot to update the mygame.js and so it crashed a bit early. That’s now fixed it. There’s about half again much ‘preview’ after the choice and you can now look at the stats screen, not that it says much.)


#4

It is be very complex, but in the edn Fedual is all base around homage. Liege and Vassal Relationship. Only reason complex when comes to inheritnes laws, hold mulitply titles, and that liege lord investing that said vassal with title.


#5

Hmm, there isn’t much done, but already I can feel how dark the story is going to be.
The language used is very good, and even though there is quite a lot of writing to start with, it’s all good. It’s very different from any intro’s I’ve seen, and am not sure how you’re going to work it, but from the little I’ve seen, this is going to be a very very interesting game.


#6

As for the Feudal System, I think this site can help a bit:

http://www.mce.k12tn.net/middleages/feudalsystem.htm

It’s very general, but informative


#7

That very cute picture. but honest if he work just formula with that he will be all right. This not taking into acount a any special twist indiviual realm had on it


#8

beside Kho and myself pick at feudalism mistake, I waiting next chapter like nobody busness.


#9

What, another sexist Choice of Game? Oh, I simply cannot wait. Really, I can’t. Being discriminated against really is my favourite thing, which I love to spend my free time doing. So thanks for facilitating that, Reaperoa.


#10

If he to want show dark nature of feudal society, in bluntness woman really get social making social second class citzens. He not being discriminate, anit femmist sense.


#11

Seconding Rogar’s comment. Women get the short end of the stick in medival society. Reaperoa would have to at least mention that if he wants to keep the theme of the story intact. If he actually HAD the older brother humilating the women in front of their daughters before going to mess with the player character, then I would have given your comment some thought. But really? If your going to argue that he’s sexist, you might as well say he’s against non-nobility as well.


#12

what do you mean sexist he clearly said that you can be female. and beside women didn’t have shit to say when it came to power structure in feudal society with a few exportation like the wife of the dead king.

ps: cant fault a person if he trying to give a fictional realistic game. and beside think about multiple play-through where you can read some difference where you playing male and female.


#13

mean few Exception


#14

Read about
Eleanor d’Aquitaine.
Jacqueline, Countess of Hainaut.
Grace O’Malley.

Eight thrones sounds pretty close to A Game of Thrones, by the way.


#15

as i said above a few exceptions.


#16

I’m not disputing the fact that women were/are discriminated against. I’m well aware that is the case. What I’m angry about is the fact that it’s getting put into a game, which is about entertainment. This pursuit of barbarism for the sake of ‘realism’ is very depressing. I just plain do not understand why people put more work into making their games less good by having different playthroughs for different genders.

The official games have demonstrated quite ably that it is possible, and indeed desirable, to ignore historical precedent in favour of writing like a civilised human being. This willingness to recognise that there are certain aspects of the past not worthy of repetition in an entertainment medium is a big part of what makes Choice Of Games so appealing in the first place.

Needless to say, I’m not going to be playing Eight Thrones, and I’m going to put some serious thought into whether I still want to pay any attention to Aeon Sage as well.


#17

if don’t like what this game represent then that alright, just turn a blind eye to it. the fact is he the one making the games and its up to reapora how the game forms itself. And just as you said if you don’t like don’t play it, And it would be preferable if you don’t start a heated argument over nothing. and just loosen up a little a game is not the place to that kind of argument.


#18

Sexism is not nothing, djma46. Entertainment is not untouchable from criticism. Suffice to say games, like all media, has the power to send and reinforce social messages. I think most of you commenting identify as men, right? In that case, you should not be so quick to shut Canisa up. Actually, even if you’re women, you shouldn’t either. She does have a valid point to all this.

My personal opinion is that it is possible to have a setting like this and still make not make the narrative sexist (we have been able to manage some that using modern day settings after all). In our communications outside of this forum, Reaperoa has shown to be at least aware of how indulgent the misogyny in a lot of “gritty grimdark realistic” fantasy is, so I’ll just wait and see. This doesn’t mean he should be excused from any criticism from a minority perspective. In fact, none of us should be excused from any, myself included.

And as I’ve said before in Vendetta’s thread, a lot of people underestimate the power women wielded in pre-modern times. So there are people who are aware of women rulers and warriors who have succeeded and thrived in these ages. But there’s a reason the likes of Grace O’Malley, Rani Lakshmibhai, or Princess Pingyang are considered notable exceptions. Because they are not only exceptional women, but also exceptional INDIVIDUALS. History is only willing to recognise powerful women only when they are larger than life and even so, not a lot of attention is given. Really, the belief that women can’t do power except for a special few is simply wishful thinking.


#19

@Rogar and @Kho Thanks, I actually do understand how (most of) it works. It’s mostly the fact that if I get bogged down in the details (and I will if I let myself), not only will it take me forever to write every little bit, a lot of people won’t be able to understand what’s going on (Why can I lay claim to this land, but not the other? Why if I take over this land can the king take it away from me, but not if I take over this land? and so on). So I’m streamlining the system (or, at the very least, I’m not exploring it in its full depth) for the sake of the narrative.

However, just to note, it probably won’t be the only out of place thing. I’m already planning on the cities being significantly more Roman than Medieval, and overall the ‘feel’ to be smeared from the fall of the Roman Empire down to the late Medieval period (technologically concentrating on the early Medieval period, and sociologically splitting the difference between the Roman Empire and the Late Medieval period, particularly after the decline of the church’s power, although religion itself will be a minor if at all present factor of the story). On the other hand, I probably don’t have the necessary finesse to pull it off, and it’ll just appear to be a jumbled medieval setting with major problems. >.<

@Bastiaan The name was actually picked pretty much randomly (It’s not a hint at something to come or anything, it’s just simply random fiat, based on that I was handling the stats in sets of eight, and it’ll probably be changed at some point). No idea that the first book of A Song of Fire and Ice was called A Game of Thrones. It’s like War and Peace, one of those things that you always intend to read, but never actually find the time to.

@Canisa Firstly, can we please stay away from personal insults and hatred? If you want to attack what I’ve written (within the game, or without), feel free, but do not turn it on me personally. Beyond that it does nothing to strengthen your point, it is too quick to turn a community to infighting, and I do love that the majority of the people on this forums has been, so far, fairly supportive of everyone else, even when there have been points of disagreement. Secondly, do note that I will not be taking the approach same writers have said they will (hetwhitemale POV only/as the main POV). The majority of the game will be the same regardless of the PC’s gender (the PC’s status as a ‘black-marked’ automatically makes them a feared outcast and a soldier of the kingdom) (and before anyone asks/comments, ‘black-marked’ is specifically referring to the fact that they are tattooed so that they can be identified). Thirdly, to the guys defending my choice, I shouldn’t be admonished for what I’m writing, don’t. Such discussions are good for improving both people’s writing and views. I take no objection to Canisa telling me that she thing’s what I’m writing is wrong.

Now, before getting to the point at hand, let me first state that the reason I decided to use such a dark setting was specifically for a deromantization of medieval Europe, specifically how it so common to slap magic on it and then add, almost as an after thought, ‘Oh, and there were no social injustices’. To me that’s depressing. Now, yes I could have used the same ‘fix’ that CoB used by just having a single variable flipping all the pronouns and just assume that the PC is the ‘dominant’ gender. (Actually I still can. It’s not too difficult to just go through and just mark every pronoun as a ${stat} and just have the game flip males and females.). I specifically decided not to and, believe it or not, it’s not a choice I came to lightly. The reason is that I think forcing the player to be the dominant gender (and therefore, in my opinion forcing the POV to be hetwhitemale, even if the PC is called a female) lends less credit to the story than allowing the player to take up the same sort of mantle as Joan of Arc or Grace O’Malley. Specifically, I wanted the player to have the option of actually being able to play as a woman, rather than just playing a man with some labels switched around.

Now, don’t get confused, I loved CoG for giving the option. I would have, however, preferred that they give the choice of an ‘integrated’ army like they had considered, where you would have actually had the option of playing a woman, rather than a man with a different label. Or, better yet, as a woman, prove that you’re as capable as any man and truly force the patriarchal society to bow and acknowledge a woman can be as capable as any man.

Now, If you want everyone to be equal, all kings and queens to be just and competent and deserving of their reign, everyone to fight honorable and pretend that Western Civilization wasn’t built on the backs of slavery, exploiting foreign cultures and abusing those too weak to defend themselves in what you read, then yes, you won’t like what I’m writing. But if you don’t mind someone actually turning an eye on how utterly horrible some time periods were, I ask that you give what I’m writing a chance before you dismiss it.

Finally, a point of much smaller contention, @ScarletGeisha, I disagree with what you say in your last sentence, specifically that many people (and I’m specifically saying people here, rather than men) believe that women haven’t been in places of prominence out of wishful thinking. Many people actually do not realize how much women have influenced (and of course continue to influence) history, and many men (this time specifically men) do not believe it because they want it that way, but only because it’s all that they’ve ever been taught, and I personally think that’s something to pity rather than hate.


#20

Playing in medieval era with realism to 100%…
This is going into my favourites!

Ah will I be able to kill the queen with a horrible death of my liking muhahahaha!