3899

Hawkins is, in a way, closer to an actual enemies to lovers story than a lot of games invoking the trope. Hawkins is absolutely your enemy, but has no personal animosity towards you, they just want to win. A lot of enemies to lovers characters are just allies who are dickheads, but I guess dickhead to lovers doesnt sound as good.

16 Likes
3900

I would love if we all just agreed to specify this way lol I am down for both but I want to know which one I’m actually getting.

11 Likes
3901

I thought enemies to lovers is often Gundam-core in its manner. Sporting foes coming to realise their similarities make them appreciate each other more, a great deal of respect given to proper foe and none to those who fail to earn theirs, optional escape to enemy side to be with the one you love. Something knightly and individualistic, putting a man over a cause.

For me, I call the bickering malicious allies with severe grudges not enemies to lovers, but a “каждой твари по паре”, “a pair for every beast / a pair of every beast”. Enemies to lovers for me is something out of knightly chansons, something akin to Song of Roland’s approach to a son of a muslim king that opposes french forces. Author praises his valour and great skill, his noble qualities of character despite him being a foe of the king main characters serve.

6 Likes
3902

I don’t know why this annoys me so much, but I hate being asked to type in a name for my character rather than being given a list of names to choose from. I assume that if the author gives a list they’ll all fit with the other names in the game at least somewhat. But given name is one of the earliest things you are generally asked for, how the hell am I supposed to know what style of name is suitable for this world.

Sure, give me the option to type in a name, but please always provide a list of acceptable names as well.

47 Likes
3903

This is a pretty little gripe for me, but it’s come up in a number of stories and always kinda bugs me to see.

You know those stories where there’s this super hyped up side objective, like, for example, becoming Agent 0 in The 180 Files, and you’re pushed into participating to try and accomplish that side objective?

You ever notice how those side gigs are always written in such a way that you are absolutely, 100% looking to grab that title… even if it doesn’t matter to you in the slightest? And if you fail, even if you were trying to do so on purpose just to get on with the story, the narrative insists that you’re super bummed out and ashamed for having failed?

That irritates me to no end, I swear.

I can’t possibly be the only player who sees these and thinks, “meh, my character wouldn’t really be interested in that.” How hard would it be to phrase it so that players have the option of deciding their level of interest for themselves? Like, if you must push me into participation, fine, but it makes no sense for my character, who is just fine where they are and not particularly eager to try and reach for the stars, to suddenly become rabid for a promotion that they weren’t even itching for.

Like, all you would need to do is write something to the effect of, “Others in your field would be over the moon to have a chance like this, but they aren’t you. How do you feel about this opportunity?”

And then players could have a small range of options that go from “I’m super into it” to “Eh, it’s not really my priority.”

Same thing for failure, instead of making it out like it’s this devastating blow to a character who, potentially, has no reason to even give a shit, why not instead put, “This would be a sad affair for others, but how do you feel, personally?”

And then players could have a similar range of options, from “I’m super heartbroken and feel awful” to “Well that’s done and over with, anyways, back to what I was doing earlier…”

Like I said, it’s a super little issue, but it always grates on the nerves whenever it shows up, that’s all.

8 Likes
3904

Really any time the MC’s opinion on something is decided for us tends to be frustrating at best. Not always, but often.

10 Likes
3905

Yeah. I get that at a certain point, an author has to decide some things for MCs across the board to agree on, because having the player determine every single thing their characters think would only serve to drag the story on after a while; but this particular point seems like it should always be in the players’ hands whether they choose to go for it or not. In other stories, the side objectives are, you know, kept to the side - if you choose to engage, cool, but it’s not gonna be a deal breaker if you do or don’t.

No, it’s only ever the ones which try to dangle some tantalizing rank up in your face that seem to demand that you care about it.

I have real life experience backing my stance on this, too - I live with a roommate who has, for the past several months, been venting her frustrations to me about her bosses trying to force a promotion on her that she has, time and again, told them she refuses to accept and will outright quit if they try and push her into it. They can’t seem to wrap their heads around the idea that she’s not interested in being a manager, and keep brushing her off and thinking that it’s some phase or something and that she’ll come around eventually. So whenever a game pulls that same kind of crap, I feel this distinct sense of background sympathy frustration for my MCs, because nine times out of ten, my MCs aren’t exactly jonesing for the job, either.

Now me, I’ve never been offered a promotion or gone hunting for one, but I have had to slip into the unpleasant role of being “boss for a day” when my more senior coworkers have the day off or are on vacation or sick or whatever and it’s literally just me and all the new kids.

5 Likes
3906

I’m fine with authors forcing ACTIONS on the player, but I do hate it when they force EMOTIONS on the player. Sure, I have to do XYZ for the plot to move forward, that’s fine. But let me privately think what I want about being forced to do that. You don’t even necessarily need to give me options to express my feelings towards it (though it’s nice when that happens) but directly contradicting my feelings in the narrative is a big no no.

26 Likes
3907

Yeah, even if I have no other option but to go along with something, at least let me have the option to be pissed about it, that’s all I ask.

4 Likes
3908

Agreed to an extent, since like it’s so common to force drug use (this includes alcohol) which is obviously an action, but that’s a personal trigger. But yeah, plot demanding something happen is one thing, deciding how the MC reacted to that is another and really should just about always be up to the player. Very little reason to not allow that much, though if you’re gonna do it don’t just decide “jk you’re actually fine with it you were just being a pissy baby for a sentence and fully regret it”. Like what’s the point in giving the option if you’re just gonna ignore it anyways? Like this one case that came up in the hated ROs thread (I think), where one was being super gross and handsy and like all but starting to SA the protagonist and you’re given the option to slap them. Naturally the follow-up to that choice is the MC is immediately horrified they reacted in such a way and apologizes profusely for it (because of course they’re in the wrong here).

5 Likes
3909

I think I remember that conversation, and I think I remember us all being unanimously disgusted by it.

2 Likes
3910

I’m halfway ready to agree, since there’s rarely any harm allowing the player to determine the main character’s opinions and emotions… as long as those reactions are within the realm of sanity. And oftetimes, players want their MC to behave in a way that doesn’t make any damn sense given the setup and/or would make you question why the MC is even engaging with the plot.

To avoid calling out anyone in the CoG community, I hang out on Mass Effect forums sometimes and I’m constantly struck by how quickly the series would have ended if the players had full control of their character’s attitude. People go around saying stuff like “MY Shepard would have laughed after killing 300k Batarians and told Liara to shut up after Thessia and antagonized every politician in the game and why won’t the game let me roleplay like I want” without realizing that there’s no reason “their” Shepard would be ever put in charge of anything or even want to do anything relevant. They’d just sit by their terminal, watching extranet porn and writing xenophobic comments under the videos until everyone is dead, because the player isn’t willing to play as “Space Jesus” the story needs them to be.

Basically, the disconnect between the emotions player wants and can express is only the game’s fault if the player is actually engaging with the story presented to them and wants options that make sense in the given context. Story isn’t just plot, and actions aren’t the only thing that can make or break a narrative. The same principle applies to characterization, and player choice cannot be unlimited in either area, both for practical and artistic concerns.

36 Likes
3911

My opinion is that (while I understand why it can be frustrating) IF should mandate whatever mindset/action the story needs for it to work the way it needs to. I know it can be annoying, but the author simply can’t accommodate every playstyle the reader wants. Especially since the alternative to the author deciding such things is usually them having to have the MC kidnapped or otherwise forced, under duress, to engage with the plot. Which can sour the reader’s opinion about the entire cast and frankly come across as even more railroading.

If the MC has to be heroic, make them heroic. If they have to care about the people in their life, make them care. It’s a delicate balancing act for sure because it’s iF, but as long as there’re meaningful choices in the game I don’t think it’ll truly upset people too much.

To tie it back to the original post. Maybe make it clear that the thing the MC’s failing at will negatively affect them or other people they care about to some significant degree if you want to have them mope about it. If it’s some minor thing that’s not a big deal, maybe include an option for the MC to shrug it off.

My guess for why it was written that way, however, is that if the MC had succeeded at whatever the challenge was (let’s say they won the lottery) there’d have probably been a few scenes of them celebrating their victory and spending all the money. But since the MC failed, the author has to fill the time in the plot that’d normally be spent celebrating with something else. Hence, moping. But that’s just my guess.

14 Likes
3912

Or, even worse, trying to accommodate as much as possible and ending up with such a coding behemoth that they get sick of looking at it and give up.

Yeah, and like I said, I’m fine with being made to participate, even if I’m not particularly interested in this bit of the story. I just want to be able for my character to have a slightly wider range than, “I NEED this job, I AM GOING to get this job”, followed by moping about when they fail. It could even just be tagged as a fake choice, just something to give some flavor and that’s it.

And it doesn’t even have to be a huge expanse of options either, just do the classic four of, “pro, less pro, neutral, negative” and I’d be a happy camper.

As for why I think they’re written like they are so often… I dunno, to be honest. It could be that the author is so excited about that particular bit of the story that they unintentionally become extremely exacting about it and end up writing the narrative as intolerant of anything but success; it could be that they see it as such a minor thing that they can just code in one set of responses and let it be, not realizing that even something like that can be more complex and multidimensional; they could just be new to writing IFs and the thought genuinely never crossed their mind. It’s hard to say, from one author to the next.

You see this stuff all the time in the comments of fanfictions, too: readers just hyping up their horrific Mary Sue of a character who would totally have decimated the entire plot because they’re just that much smarter and better (read: stupider and worse) than everybody.

It’s a good reminder why authors don’t necessarily need to take in every bit of criticism.

6 Likes
3913

Sometimes it really doesn’t make sense for the MC not to root for success, you know? You might not care about what they want, but it might be important that they want something. Take College Tennis WIP for example. You can’t roleplay an MC that self-sabotages their games and is a drug-abusing playboy all semester (kinda wish you could but it’s a lighthearted story).

3 Likes
3914

Oh definitely not, and that’s not what I’m after in the first place. My MCs having something to strive for is part of what makes them enjoyable to play in the first place.

What I mean is more the situations like in The 180 Files, where you’re in the middle of this extremely high stakes investigation, but then your commanders are all, “by the way, Agent 0 is retiring and is looking at you as his replacement, so we’re going to put you through a test for that promotion,” which is neat and all but ultimately doesn’t provide much to the rest of the story. It’s just an achievement you can maybe get, but does nothing to actually help your investigation (unless there’s certain checks later that are easier if you’re the new Agent 0, I can’t say for certain on that one - though I got through the game just fine without, so even then, it’s not that big a thing).

And yet, failing that test gets you beat over the head by the narrative for it.

That’s what I mean, is the stuff that you should be allowed to safely be “meh” about, because it’s purely just side content, but the story, itself, is oddly insistent on it being this groundshaking thing on your behalf.

(In The 180 Files’ defense, it’s not a completely out of the blue thing - the reason you get pinned as Agent 0’s potential replacement is because you’re one of the best the agency has, so it absolutely makes sense to test you for it. But if I’m remembering correctly, there are several points where you can privately be all, “but I’m honestly fine where I am” and yet the story will still act like you were dealt this gut punch if you fail.)

10 Likes
3915

I had this problem in TWC3 with my MCs becoming agents. None of them really wanted to become agents, so I had to do mental gymnastics as to why they would go along so easily. In one of their cases, it’s to clean the place up, because she thinks it’s poorly managed and their SOPs are shit.

7 Likes
3916

Funniest bit tied to Agent 0’s plot point was the ending in my run where MC threw away his shot for Angel and ties to Cerberus. Despite me constantly saying that I could not care less about such matters and didn’t want to become Agent 0 anyway, Angel acted like I was smitten by him and was a perfect fresh meat for Cerberus to pick up. Angel, darling, I lost a hand and have crippling PTSD. I threw away my shot because I don’t want to deal with this shit.

3 Likes
3917

Yeah, my Agent 180 kinda sorted retreated from all emotional output after losing her arm (but learned how to fake it for the job, of course), so when she purposely botched the promotion exam and Agent 0 started going off about, “God, I thought you were supposed to be one of the good ones! You were my top recommendation! Do you have any idea how bad this is going to make me look in front of-?!” my 180 just stood there, quietly chewing her lip all, Just wait him out, McBride, eventually he’ll stop throwing his hissy fit and you can get back to work.

Also yes, her real name was Mari McBride. I have a personal headcanon where people who know her name (rare, because she’s loathe to tell anyone) often antagonize her about, “McBride? Who’s the lucky McGroom?”

And then she just stares them down until they break under the pressure and apologize.

2 Likes
3918

In my case my agent was an adult man looking very much like a youthful androgynous clone of all blond bishonens in my collection of anime. Name was… Rose da Silva, main feature was both his absolute brutality in doing his job and “man, I want a vacation”. Overall, I can’t really say much about him aside from the lack of tendency for others to mistake him for a girl, especially given the name.

Oh, that’s another thing that bugs me. I love gender confusion as a trope and just as much I love crossdressing for spying / fishing for information. It really feels lacking to see a spy game underutilize my appearance or never use it at all - like, wouldn’t it be cool if our appearance could be changed in order to appeal to targets better, if having certain appearance traits would either be harmful or beneficial to intended goal? The only game that did it in my memory was Eagle’s Heir, and it mainly did “crossdressing for spying purposes” angle.

5 Likes