# Disliked Elements, Mechanics, and Tropes **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Created:** [May 13, 2015, 10:12am UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368 "2015-05-13T10:12:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 243
**Author:** ![Dark\_Stalker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/dark_stalker/32/3196_2.png) [@Dark\_Stalker](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/Dark_Stalker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2024, 7:01pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5029 "2024-04-01T19:01:47Z")
> [@SourPeaches](#): > > Related to this point, there’s also the odd implication that, for example, as a gay man, you’d prefer every single person in your close circle to be male, and for every meaningful (platonic) relationship you have to be with men. Just make every ro’s gender random each playthrough. And then cite realism or something. ---
**Author:** ![Sally\_Forth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/sally_forth/32/156737_2.png) [@Sally\_Forth](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/Sally_Forth)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 3:20pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5030 "2024-04-21T15:20:37Z")
Something that’s been bothering me more and more, but… when every RO is squeaky clean and perfect and nice. Heart’s Choice has this especially bad; it doesn’t matter if the RO in question is a noble, a criminal, a merchant, a peasant, a member of the royal family, or anything in-between, they’ll always be kind (either openly or deep down), they’ll always have progressive views, they’ll always reject social practices and norms that are or can be seen as cruel, even if those are the norm in their society. Logically, I know why those ROs are written that way. Nobody wants to romance a racist, or sexist, or classist, or bigot after all, especially not in a community like CoG, which hosts a lot of LGBTQ+ and BIPOC people, along with people from other minorities. But idk, to me having a cast of characters that are _all_ progressive and kind and perfect just makes them feel bland. In a narrative, kidness stands out the most when it’s contrasted by cruelty or other unpleasant stuff, so having all characters be “kind” doesn’t highlight their qualities compared to other characters, it just makes them feel same-y. And I find that there’s a lot more value in a person learning about the error of their ways through character development, rather than being a static “perfect” figure from the get-go. I’m also just a lot more fascinated with character flaws than character qualities in fiction, because what makes a person unique aren’t just their good points, but their bad points too. To me, a character that _can_ be disliked will always stand out more and be a lot more interesting than a character that can do no wrong for anyone. And especially in Heart’s Choice, the downside of having all ROs be kind and perfect is that it unintentionally makes them feel more like props for romance than actual people, and thus ironically makes me _less_ interested in them as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Omeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/omeg/32/201348_2.png) [@Omeg](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/Omeg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 3:36pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5031 "2024-04-21T15:36:22Z")
> [@Sally\_Forth](#): > > Logically, I know why those ROs are written that way. Nobody wants to romance a racist, or sexist, or classist, or bigot after all, especially not in a community like CoG, which hosts a lot of LGBTQ+ and BIPOC people, along with people from other minorities. I don’t think you’ve been to the CoG subreddit. Either of them. There is definitely market for mean, bigoted, toxic and generally “Red Flag” love interests. It’s just that games from the _Choice of Games_ and _Heart’s Choice_ brand tend to play everything safe on every level. Hosted games and WIPs can get away with having prejudiced ROs, though it’s easier when that bigotry is of fantastic variety (e.g. Carrie from _Blood Moon_) rather than something relevant to the real world. ---
**Author:** ![dreamofeden](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/dreamofeden/32/184326_2.png) [@dreamofeden](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/dreamofeden)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 4:07pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5032 "2024-04-21T16:07:42Z")
I have a theory on why Choicescript Games and Hearts Choice tend to be safer. I could be waaaay off but its my little conspiracy theory. On the “Looking for Writers” page for Choice of Games, it mentions that “If we’ve rejected your application to our Choice of Games label, feel free to apply again after 12 months.” which probably leads to potential writers leaning towards the safer side; why risk your one chance per year on something less likely to pass the approval? Especially when the standards (in terms of what content you’re allowed to include) appear to be much higher for the main label since they have a brand image to maintain. I don’t think its intentional, but a lot of the games feel very “safe” in terms of both content and mechanically. Its fine because its created a niche for each of the labels, and Choice of Games is something safe and predictable. Like, 99% of the games on Choice of Games, I wouldn’t mind giving to teens/tweens, but it does mean that generally if you’re looking for something outside of more “normal” relationship content, you probably won’t find it in Choice of Games ---
**Author:** ![Nm6k](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/nm6k/32/89948_2.png) [@Nm6k](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/Nm6k)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 4:11pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5033 "2024-04-21T16:11:06Z")
I think I need to add that there are still rules to Hostedgames and there have been games that have been changed or rejected for having too much problematic content or problematic content of a certain type ---
**Author:** ![Sally\_Forth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/sally_forth/32/156737_2.png) [@Sally\_Forth](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/Sally_Forth)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 4:15pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5034 "2024-04-21T16:15:34Z")
> [@Omeg](#): > > I don’t think you’ve been to the CoG subreddit. Either of them. Please don’t make those sorts of assumptions about me. I understand why you did, but I’d rather you avoid it, especially since I myself am one of those people that like toxic or red flag ROs, so I am well-aware that the market exists. But there is also a difference between liking red flag ROs and having an RO with discriminatory ideologies that hit a bit too close to home. While they’re both at their core fictional characters, and while both of them can be triggering depending on how they’re written or presented, one of them definitely comes off as more palatable than the other. To rephrase what I said: I understand why CoG as a brand would rather play it safe in that way, but I wish it didn’t lead to characters being so same-y and bland so often. ---
**Author:** ![HarrisPS](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/harrisps/32/240120_2.png) [@HarrisPS](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/HarrisPS)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 4:45pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5035 "2024-04-21T16:45:15Z")
I feel like there are three strands to it: romanceable characters being bigoted in ways that affect people in the real world, romanceable characters being flawed in other ways, or romanceable characters being rivals or hostile to the PC. I’d expect something like a romanceable character being unrepentantly homophobic or like, constantly doing terrible things\* to be questioned by the editors to see how the writer was planning to handle it in-game. I did a summary of the house style [over here](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/cog-hg-business-model/840/403) - it’s fine to depict bigotry if it’s done thoughtfully, it’s just that the narrative shouldn’t support/glorify it. I can’t speak to depicting real-world bigotry in detail as it’s not something I tend to write about much, but in my experience, perfect/kind love interests absolutely aren’t something enforced by CoG/HC at the application stage - or ever! If all the romanceable characters were set up to hate the PC, I could see that raising questions about the risk of it being one-note, but CoG have always been perfectly happy with accepting pitches from me with flawed romanceable NPCs, or romanceable NPCs who are hostile to the PC. I’ve never had them give me feedback suggesting that characters should be nicer or less flawed, or that I shouldn’t lean into the characters’ imperfect or unkind aspects. I do agree there’s a risk of romanceable characters becoming flatter if the writer is prioritising them being likeable/relatable/universally appealing though. I see this in other media too, but games (and dating sims in particular) can be especially tricky for this because of ending up focusing on perceived player wish-fulfilment to the detriment of rounded-out characters. I haven’t experienced that with the CoG and HC games I’ve completed, though - perhaps I’m playing the wrong (or right) ones. Or I end up not playing until the end if the characters haven’t gripped me. \*although I will say: CoG never asked me to tone down Mayor Ferro from Blood Money, who’s a nasty piece of work who does various horrible things in the game, nor to dial back anything about some of the bad things some of the Noblesse Oblige or Honor Bound characters have done or do onscreen. ---
**Author:** ![JBento](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/jbento/32/152131_2.png) [@JBento](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/JBento)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 4:55pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5036 "2024-04-21T16:55:20Z")
> [@HarrisPS](#): > > romanceable NPCs who are hostile to the PC _Javi shows up_ “Let’s fight!” Me: Dafuq? O\_o Still doesn’t beat CdlC’s Blaise: “I’m gonna get you expelled, you fuck!” Me: Do I even KNOW you, lady? ---
**Author:** ![vera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/vera/32/272531_2.png) [@vera](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/vera)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 10:08pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5037 "2024-04-21T22:08:38Z")
> [@HarrisPS](#): > > or romanceable NPCs who are hostile to the P There’s something in Hawkins that has altered my brain chemistry and made me search like a hound for anything like it. Dusk was… similar, Wakefield and JJ too, but man, mecha just adds a new layer of wonder. Like, yeah, he might be a battle-hungry bastard, but at least he does that in a cool robot. ---
**Author:** ![JBento](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/jbento/32/152131_2.png) [@JBento](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/JBento)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 10:12pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5038 "2024-04-21T22:12:52Z")
It’s still in its infancy, but Diana aka Guinevere over a Knights of Venus is very definitely giving me Hawkins vibes (but she’s female, don’t know if you’re interested): > [@Knights of Venus - 14k word Mech WIP - Updated 01/29/2024](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/knights-of-venus-14k-word-mech-wip-updated-01-29-2024/148371/1): > > In the year 2234, humanity… isn’t much better than it is now. Still divided into petty nation-states and private interests, humanity has allowed their spread into the stars to be captured by the whims of the wealthy. This has given rise to a constant state of private war beyond the watchful eye of Mother Earth, where the rich and powerful pay armature pilots to help them get one over on their competition. On Venus, the greatest nexus of the decadence of space, a new class of mercenary has arise… ---
**Author:** ![EvilChani](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/evilchani/32/210661_2.png) [@EvilChani](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/EvilChani)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 10:23pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5039 "2024-04-21T22:23:00Z")
> [@vera](#): > > There’s something in Hawkins that has altered my brain chemistry and made me search like a hound for anything like it. I understand why now. Hawkins was the best done rival romance I’ve ever seen. The fact that you can get a happy ending with them is the icing on the cake, too. ---
**Author:** ![vera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/vera/32/272531_2.png) [@vera](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/vera)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 10:56pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5040 "2024-04-21T22:56:34Z")
How about multiple happy endings? I like Seven-Year War on most of my Hawkinsmancers, but Captain has the most sugoi flavour text imaginable. ---
**Author:** ![EvilChani](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/evilchani/32/210661_2.png) [@EvilChani](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/EvilChani)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 10:59pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5041 "2024-04-21T22:59:44Z")
I really should check out the other endings. I’ve played twice now and always get the Damocles ending. I love my MC running it with Hawkins, and that ending thing with him saying to come back to him was just perfect. ❤ ---
**Author:** ![vera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/vera/32/272531_2.png) [@vera](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/vera)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 11:00pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5042 "2024-04-21T23:00:33Z")
Funnily enough, Diana was the one I was interested in. I don’t mind romancing women - but man, I sure hope a person based enough to name their mech Koschei isn’t actually dead. ---
**Author:** ![vera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/vera/32/272531_2.png) [@vera](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/vera)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 11:02pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5043 "2024-04-21T23:02:53Z")
Captain has the most adorable gestures, even if I like Seven-Year War’s Warrior conversation more. He stands by your side near light jump, treats you very gently and attentively, and in general makes my heart really mushy. Also, thus alternative romance path start is my fucking jam. I pick it nearly all the time. > “Is battle all you live for?” > Hawkins nods immediately. “Yes. To live one’s life for battle, is there any worthy alternative?” > _“Yes, you could live your life for me.”_ ---
**Author:** ![apple](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/apple/32/33660_2.png) [@apple](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/apple)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 4:06am UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5044 "2024-04-22T04:06:48Z")
Aaaaaaaa people are talking about my game! I’ve made it 🥹 I’d hold back on getting _too_ attached to Diana as a Hawkins type. There’s definitely similarities but she’s… well, her arc goes differently, is all I’ll say. ---
**Author:** ![MoonlightBomber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/moonlightbomber/32/191503_2.png) [@MoonlightBomber](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/MoonlightBomber)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 8:30am UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5045 "2024-04-22T08:30:56Z")
> [@Sally\_Forth](#): > > Something that’s been bothering me more and more, but… when every RO is squeaky clean and perfect and nice. Well, whenever I write ROs, or even every major named character ever, I have to write them as humanly as possible, flaws included. One can be boisterous, another can be clumsy, but that’s part and parcel of their personalities. > [@HarrisPS](#): > > I can’t speak to depicting real-world bigotry That was one of my shortcomings when I wrote _Falrika the Alchemist_. Sure, the villains are mostly remnants of the tyrannical Weiliwubisky clan, who have bases in real-life bigots, but Kate told me I went too far in making those villains despicable and unredeemable. ---
**Author:** ![JBento](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/jbento/32/152131_2.png) [@JBento](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/JBento)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 12:12pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5046 "2024-04-22T12:12:23Z")
> [@apple](#): > > Aaaaaaaa people are talking about my game! I’ve made it MOAR MECHA!!! ---
**Author:** ![q\_riley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/q_riley/32/88105_2.png) [@q\_riley](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/q_riley)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 2:10pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5047 "2024-04-22T14:10:20Z")
The day we get another mecha game will be the day I die happily ---
**Author:** ![LiliArch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/choiceofgames/user_avatar/forum.choiceofgames.com/liliarch/32/120749_2.png) [@LiliArch](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/u/LiliArch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368/5048 "2024-04-22T14:49:03Z")
> [@HarrisPS](#): > > I do agree there’s a risk of romanceable characters becoming flatter if the writer is prioritising them being likeable/relatable/universally appealing though. I personally _do_ hope it’s possible to not have ROs seem all same-y to the readers without making some of them be horrible people, because I can’t just force myself to make ROs I _don’t_ like, it’s just too unpleasant for me to _write_. [Previous page](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368.md?page=242) [Next page](https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/disliked-elements-mechanics-and-tropes/9368.md?page=244)