Discussing Visa/MasterCard's policy changes regarding paying for NSFW content

There is one thing we all seem to have forgotten, and its basic economics 101. Companies exist to make money, and their first duty is to their shareholders, not their customers. To keep their shareholders happy and make money they will keep their customers happy so they come back for more. And if that means banning payments to other companies that provide NSFW content, so be it. The rest of us have no right to complain about their conduct, just look at the riots everytime they have those international large meetings with banks, governments etc. Those riots have only created large fines and prison terms for the protestors, they have not made any difference to the banks or their profits. You can sometimes persuade a government to change laws concerning banks, but don’t hold your breath, because most of those pollies are shareholders and they will not vote against their personal best interest, even if the shares are in their wife’s name.

The long and the short of it is get rich, buy shares, then go to the AGM with all your rich share-holding mates and try to bring down the board so as to get the bank to change its policies.

Its not fair, but thats how our society works at the moment. Money talks.

This is confused language. Just because you don’t think we should complain, or think that complaining would be ineffective or counterproductive, doesn’t mean we don’t have a right to do it.

This whole issue is thick with confusions between what’s legal and moral. Rights-talk is about legality. The company has a right to censor any content they like. We have a right to complain about it, as customers who are decidedly not happy.

When was there last a riot (as opposed to a barely-covered protest) around a G7/IMF/WTO meeting? Is that still a common thing that I’ve just missed the news coverage of?

Mass complaint calls to a company’s customer service line are a totally different approach than riots, so the ineffectiveness of Black Bloc tactics is irrelevant to what you’re trying to prove.

And the idea that companies only respond to laws or pressure at AGM level would be oversimplified even for Econ 101. Boycotts can make a difference. Vocal customer feedback can make a difference. They’re a way for a company’s customers to communicate their preferences with more information than purchases alone convey.

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The last riots were at the last meeting, they were not reported by Murdoch Press/News Ltd, like a lot of things. We can protest all we like, but if we are not shareholders we cannot actually protest to shareholders at a meeting, and we have no legal right to be there, and thats when and where future policies and aims get an airing and are voted upon. We still have protests at AGM’s here in Australia where protests get violent and a police presence is required.

As for trying to call an international company like a bank, have you ever managed to get through to a human being? The filtering systems in those call centres are so efficient hardly anyone gets through and even using disability access you get hung up on after 20 minutes!

Letters to management probably end up filed in rubbish if you are not a shareholder, and if you were a shareholder, you would have to register what you wanted to discuss so its put on the agenda for the AGM and discussed. You would need a proposer and seconder for that too, so there would need to be three of you having shares in your own names to get that done.

As for boycotts, you would need massive numbers to make a difference to a bank’s bottom line, and there will always be those who will dismiss any protest about games and their content as rubbish, which is most of the population. The problems associated with changing all your banking over, including mortgages, wages, credit cards etc, would mean the average person simply could not be bothered.

Taking on banks that have manifestly broken the law is fraught with problems and requires a money tree, taking them on as a small interest group would require something special to get most people to even think about it, let alone the banking community taking it seriously.

The last meeting of…who? I don’t follow Murdoch news, but I can’t spot news from any online source about recent riots at bank meetings, let alone a Visa or Mastercard AGM.

If when you wrote “The rest of us have no right to complain…” you meant “…by barging uninvited into a shareholder AGM,” it would have been worth explcitly saying that last part (and I’d have agreed with you). It would also have been a bit irrelevant, since no one on the thread has been proposing that as a tactic.

When we’re talking about calls, letters, and boycotts: their effectiveness depends on how much management feels is at stake. If they think you’re asking them to sacrifice significant profits or expose themselves to unacceptable legal risk, then absolutely, they’re likely to ignore your advocacy. (And if they were tempted to make a change, they’d want shareholder ratification to make sure they weren’t exposing themselves to shareholder lawsuits later.)

But if they don’t perceive it as a high-stakes issue, then even a relatively minor customer push can lead to a policy change, without needing to go to AGM level. Maybe the surge in customer feedback persuades the company they’re leaving money on the table somewhere, or overlooking a risk. Maybe they just think it’s a minor headache where the easiest way to make it go away is to agree to what people are asking. Collective Shout seems to have triggered a change with a thousand-odd calls.

It’s certainly possible that the payment companies feel that Collective Shout has highlighted an unacceptable business risk on game platforms. If so, they’re unlikely to change back under customer pressure. But it’s also possible that the banks can be convinced that the kinds of policies itch is adopting are foolishly excessive, costing everyone involved some profit. What happens if several thousand customers get in touch and say, “I would be buying this harmless NSFW game, on which you get a cut, except that itch has needlessly taken it down in an overreaction to your policy on rape games”?

You say it’s obvious that the companies wouldn’t care. I say we won’t know without trying.

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So just held your head down, don’t complain, keep consuming, you wouldn’t want to make the big corpo sad, right? Just keep being a good submissive little consumer, letting the corpo tell you what to do, what to think and when to breathe.

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The key takeaway is, don’t expect better from corporations. They don’t owe you a damn thing and they sure as hell don’t care about you. They care about money, and any protests or complaints need to recognize that and work toward influencing the company’s cash flow or view of same.

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To be honest, we are more worried about mining companies here at the moment as they want to take the water from the enormous aquifer in central Australia that keeps most of the country surviving, and opposing tactics included jumping from bridges and hanging above rush hour traffic and punching a police horse on the nose as well as some rowdy shareholders, think BHP, Rio Tinto, Woodside, Santos, and other big international companies. The Banks were subject to a Royal Commission which recommended a lot of reforms, but guess what, our pollies in Canberra are too busy elsewhere and look the other way. Must admit the country is in a mess with legislation from the last decade only coming into effect now. I don’t think even the Brits have managed that!

For those who don’t know, our Aussie politicians are usually aligned to a party but are ordinary people, in the main, apart from the kids who take it on as a career choice and never do a days work in a regular job, but they are usually approachable.

I still have little or no idea of who Collective Shout are, I’ve looked at the website but they do not get much of a mention here if any at all, but they would be right up there as right wing with the New York Post and other right wing US media like News Limited. Our problem is the Alliance, made up of right wing millionaire miners who are battling climate change as they are scared of losing a bit of income.

The only way to attract more sympathy from people who would normally ignore you or even oppose you - which is parents, teachers and many singles, as well as grandparents etc - is to find common cause with them against how Visa and Mastercard operate. Then you get the numbers to make a complaint. Here in Australia Visa and Mastercard would not be able to discriminate against you as its illegal, which is probably why I haven’t heard of Collective Shout. You would possibly have lawyers offering their services for free to get a chance at being involved in a case going to the High Court - our equivalent of your Supreme Court. Our States as well as the Commonwealth government have anti-discrimination legislation covering pretty much everything they can, apart from a few glaring religious gaps. That may be the way to try and stop them, but I am totally confused about your political system so I don’t know how you would get anti-discrimination regulation of banks passed. Through the courts, like Roe v Wade? Presidential decree? Your legislators? Your politicians don’t seem to be particularly approachable, unlike ours. You would probably have more luck identifying and approaching shareholders and getting it brought up at an AGM, or getting someone in the media to champion your cause who has connections enough to get a few Hollywood names involved. You have another three years before the next Presidential election circus to get organised.

FWIW, I don’t think you could buy a lot of those rape and sex type games over here on Steam or Itch - illegal. And they are probably illegal in many other countries. Discrimination against women, among other things.

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They’re an Australian group, and it would have been mostly Aussie supporters calling Aussie payment processor offices who spurred the companies to take action (with global impact). I wouldn’t blame anyone who assumed this came out of America, but for once, nope.

This is a fight about what (if any) porn should be bannable, and as you note, Australia’s laws offer a sympathetic foundation for banning some of it.

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I don’t know what the laws are like in the EU. They seem to be going through a period of change, and many of the member countries are Catholic or Orthodox so laws may be less tolerant. I suspect its hard to find a happy balance as there will always be competing rights and people who complain their interests are being ignored. But I have never believed that one country, or a special interest group made up of its citizens, should have the right to interfere with another.

This is who Collective Shout claims to support:

  • Adults - aged 25 to under 65

  • Adults - aged 65 and over

  • Children - aged 6 to under 15

  • Early childhood - aged under 6

  • Families

  • Females

  • General community in Australia

  • Males

  • Other charities

  • Overseas communities or charities

  • Youth - 15 to under 25

The bit about very vague overseas communities or charities suggests they help fund activities and just over 85% of their income comes from donations and bequests. They appear to have less than AUD$500,000.00 in their bank accounts. They have been around for about 12 years but are registered in a different state from where I live, which is why I probably haven’t heard of their activities. They claim to stand up for the rights of women and against the objectification of women in the media but state they do not operate outside of Australia, although their mission statement says they can. Thats all I have been able to find out for the moment. I’ll see if I can dig a bit more.

There’s currently a petition for Australia regarding this

Summary

" Stop VISA and MASTERCARD from dictating access to Legal Content."

e-petitions – Parliament of Australia

I hope something actually comes from it. And I hope paypals next. I’ve been hearing people getting their paypal accounts suspended for buying erotic ebooks and the kinks weren’t even that bad tbh.

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yeah I heard that too, I really hope this stops sometime soon but I fear it’s just gonna get worse

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As far as I can make out, most of the games that have vanished were already illegal in Australia, like underage girls, Hitler is my lover, etc. You will really need to check that you are complaining about what is really legal, which means looking at what the Classification Board considers illegal. I suspect that might come as a shock to many who want to sign as what is being enforced might just be inline with the law here. You will also need to check that everyone who signs is actually over 18 and in Australia, which is difficult on an internet only petition, but post codes generally seem to suffice.

yeah valve basically swung from one extreme to the other there

I wouldn’t assume any existing agreements are automatically null though. deals like that don’t just vanish because policy shifts, but they can definitely be revisited if the landscape changes enough

If anything it might open the door for more stuff to show up faster, but like you said, the downside is discovery on steam is going to be even more of a mess now.