I have a doubt, I am preparing the planning of my Halloween jam game. I want to allow an Nb character, however, this is a game about the psychological effects of fear isolation discrimination and confront the ideals one is against.
For example, If you choose to be male You are the first African-American astronaut in 1970.
The woman is the first woman on space in 1970.
Both suffered discrimination.
Adding an NB character in this Alternative America implies that the character has to pretend to be the genre they is not.
So I don’t think that people in the forum want to read that. So I am just asking would you as Nb feel comfortable with it?
Gower
62
Why couldn’t you be the first NB person in space in 1970?
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Eiwynn
63
Part of her issue is the “horror” aspect of the game she is designing involves twisting everything into its opposite and so, for example: the female character becomes male… would the non-binary become a random binary in this case or would that be problematic for people?
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I’m not sure if “problematic” is the right word, but honestly trying to read that concept from a trans perspective just makes me tilt my head. I’m not often here to advocate for cis-locking a game but that might be the best course for that concept. Not because I’m offended at all, but because a complex relationship with gender and your own body makes becoming the opposite sex/gender kind of hard to make as scary as it sounds like @poison_mara is going for
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Also the fact the Pc has suffered discrimination to reach their position in an alternative American borderline fascism, It is a key component of the plot.
I really think that gender lock makes more sense but I am always trying for integrating most people possible
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Kaelyn
66
Just to be sure. Would someone of the NB spectrum be against a game world in which every gender has been removed from the appearance and in which every Person, would be just a Person, without the biological gender playing a Role?
I’m not of the NB spectrum, but the nature of the story would have to be unique (think sci-fi of some sort, most likely) for the story to actually work. Sex (edited) has a real impact on people, both biologically and socially; removing it entirely means removing a major aspect of what makes humans human. Obviously, this can work in the right circumstances, but in a normal IF game about characters and character interactions, doing away with it entirely might not be the best move. I’m interested to see if someone who is on the NB spectrum agrees or disagrees.
the idea doesn’t interest me personally but i don’t find it offensive. i mean, i’m agender. so that would be a world full of people like me, i guess? or do you mean that all genders still conceptually exist, but the concept of gender is not associated with appearance?
also, i think both you and @TheGhost are conflating sex and gender a bit:
Kaelyn, I think you mean biological sex. and Ghost, I think you are confusing gender and sex when you say gender has a biological impact on people. gender is not biological, sex is.
since gender is a human social construct, i don’t feel like it takes away a major aspect of humanity to make all humans in a fictional setting not adhere to the idea of gender as a whole. plenty of players would not be interested in playing a game with that setting/conceit but it’s not like being agender would make characters suddenly not have an appearance, style of expression, style of dress, romantic/sexual preferences, etc. it’s just that none of it would be dictated by or in reference to gender, specifically real-world binary gender.
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Kaelyn
69
You are right. I mean a world similar to ours but with all people and genders treated the same and without anyone making differences. There is just no she/he everyone is referred to as they/them and individuals
So that the biological Sex is just appearance variant and no longer part of an special identification
Hua_An
70
gender is not biological
By no means an expert but I would disagree. Gender roles and expression, sure, but if gender identity itself were a social construct, would trans kids exist?
Yes, because it is a social construct, and they do exist.
Edit: I think I was a bit snippy, so I’ll try to expand quickly. Gender roles and expression are, well, ways to express your identity. Gender identity is how you identify. Cis men can wear dresses, skirts, makeup, etc. and still identify as male. Cis women can wear traditionally masculine clothing and still identify as female. Trans women can present as masculine, and still identify as women, and vice versa.
Outside of the binary, a nonbinary person can express their gender identity through a number of ways, and that would fall under gender expression and gender roles. Hope that makes sense.
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i didn’t say gender identity is a construct, i said gender is. like race. i don’t think this thread/forum is the place (nor do i think i am the trans kid) for the diatribe i had planned in response, so instead i suggest looking up the differences (and relations) between sex (the biological one), gender (the societal one), gender identity (an individual’s personal sense of where they fit on that social spectrum), and gender expression. Gender roles and expression especially can differ and do differ a lot based almost solely on culture and location.
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@CC_Hill
My response to your post in the other thread.
For your first point, gender and physical attributes are two different things, one is internal the other is external. I feel that non binary is more about gender or the choice not to identify as either to be more accurate, rather than physical attributes. So by all means someone who identifies as non-binary could be tall or broad shouldered for example and race wouldn’t factor into it, it’s separate from gender and sex in this scenario. In regards to more obvious male or female attributes, for a non-binary character, try not to mention or draw attention to them. I don’t know if it’s the norm, but I feel there is some level of uncomfortableness with the more obvious attributes. Not a blanket statement, just how I feel about it.
As for your second issue I’m not all that familiar with enby, in the sense I’ve not really met anyone who has used that term.
Again this is just my take on it, hope that helps a little
@Abe
Good point about presentation, I’ve never really felt comfortable with overly feminine or masculine clothing. But I agree that the way one chooses to dress or present themselves does not correspond with how they identify.
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Abe
74
For @CC_Hill, as an enby person, here are my answers. Hope they help.
For your first question, being non-binary does not have a definite race (seeing that non-Western cultures, such as the Native Americans and the Thai to name a few, did have more than two gender identities) or body standard. Like @Autumn19 said, being nonbinary is more of how a person identify themselves rather than what they look like.
i also have to state that one’s presentation does not necessarily correlate with a person’s gender identity. For example, i may dress femininely on a given day but that does not mean that i’m no longer nonbinary.
On another note, there are some authors who would use “androgynous-looking” as a nonbinary option; but personally, it feels like off because i’m getting the impression that nonbinary people have to be androgynous to be nonbinary.
For your second question, personally, i don't mind but there may be others uncomfortable with it. My advice is to ask them.
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CC_Hill
75
Thank you so much for replying, the part about the body attribute I will take it out. because I can never be sure. but I will keep the height and race.
CC_Hill
76
Thank you, I will stick with non-binary. and just to clarify…I was giving the option to the player to define the race, height, and body attributes of the non-binary RO to be shown like this in the stat
But I agree that not all non-binary are androgynous.
Basically, in answer to any questions on this topic:
Research is key.
But that’s a little glib, so, here’s deeper commentary from the POV of an NB person.
Depends. As you mentioned, if the game takes place in a setting where NB people are unremarkable, then such a character is probably not going to cause much of a stir.
If it’s unusual to be NB, however, or takes place in a real-world setting that isn’t completely chock full of alternate history, then I’d expect some comment on it and flavor-text (where appropriate). Otherwise, it just falls flat for me. But on the other side of the coin, if it gets laid on too thick, I get bored. Gender is part of me, but I don’t think about it all the time. It’s just…there. Until it’s suddenly relevant, like when I’m dating or I’m filling out forms that actually ask.
But I largely pass as cis, so…
Eh, again, it depends.
For instance, I’m able to clock NB or trans people more easily than someone who is cis. But that’s me. It’s not a universal thing.
- Yes, if it suits the setting.
- Oh, gosh, there are so many possibilities on this one that if I tried to answer it here, I’d derail this topic.
- Lead to deeper understanding, I hope.
- Short and sweet can be a writer’s best friend.
If this has helped anyone, cool. If not…my condolences.
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