Critiquing vs Criticizing

TSSL · 2019-01-29T00:24:25.489Z

will:

sandwich critique

I know it’s a popular method of giving critique, but it’s so pervasive that it can often come across as disingenuous.

I wouldn’t say that it’s really necessary to rigidly adhere to the sandwich structure, but I think that including some positives alongside the negatives is important, and beginning with the positives is going to be a lot more encouraging than the reverse. (The close, on the other hand, I think just some polite “good luck with the rest of your writing” or suchlike can be enough.)

As for why positive feedback is important, well, I’ll quote myself so I don’t need to type it all out again…

Positive feedback is more useful than a lot of people realize. For one thing, it demonstrates to the author that this feedback is coming from someone who appreciates something about the story/game, so any suggestions that tester has are coming from someone who at least somewhat gets the project and could be part of its audience. It also shows the author what’s working, what to do more of, what strengths the author can play up. And, well, motivation is important too.

Really, if an author receives some feedback that is nothing but negatives, the author is liable to conclude “well, this reader isn’t part of my audience anyway, so I’ll may more attention to suggestions from people who are interested.”

As far as structuring feedback, I also usually move from the big level feedback toward the small level stuff. Typos and bug fixes can generally just be plopped at the end, under a [details][/details] tag, as you don’t really need them to take up a big bunch of space in the thread.

Camille622:

I also think it’s important to just give your personal impression,

Oh yeah, and even giving more neutral impressions can still be useful. Just things like what you think characters are like, or what you think is going on in the story, etc. Sometimes what the author intends to convey isn’t matching what the reader is getting out of it, and you’ll never know it unless you check.

easternsybil · 2019-01-29T01:11:36.778Z

I know that everyone will have differing opinions regarding the positive to negative feedback ratio, but there have been lots of studies done on how people learn and develop ideas depending on feedback received.

I got to sit in on a live VR-based study several years ago, where subjects were asked to solve a particular problem. When they were wrong, a big red ‘x’ appeared and a buzz sounded. When they were right, a green checkmark appeared and a little dingy sounded. The experiments were still in the early stages, but the info they had gathered was that the subjects were (predictably) more receptive to the positive reinforcement.

Studies I searched up had different results, largely focusing on the importance of a mix of positive and negative feedback. Hard to improve if you dont know what you’ve done wrong, but also humans are silly and like the green checkmarks. If the point of critiquing and providing feedback to WIPs is to help the author learn to produce a better product, I think it’s worth it to take into consideration how people work.

Memory & Cognition

Comparing the effects of positive and negative feedback in...

Categorical learning is dependent on feedback. Here, we compare how positive and negative feedback affect information-integration (II) category learning. Ashby and O’Brien (2007) demonstrated that both positive and negative feedback are required to...

Attention, Perception, & Psychophysics

The effects of positive versus negative feedback on information-integration...

A number of studies have shown that in category learning, providing feedback about errors allows faster learning than providing feedback about correct responses. However, these previous studies used explicit, rulebased tasks in which the category...

Jacic · 2019-01-29T04:16:52.322Z

easternsybil:

When they were right, a green checkmark appeared and a little dingy sounded. The experiments were still in the early stages, but the info they had gathered was that the subjects were (predictably) more receptive to the positive reinforcement.

Haven’t read the links, but shouldn’t be a surprise. It’s been known for a long, long time and that’s why slot machines are designed the way they are with all their jingling sounds and flashing lights. You don’t get buzzers for non-successful runs, only re-enforcement for the successful ones. (That’s not the only thing they use, but it’s definitely a factor.) But yeah, there is still a balance to be made between encouragement and the information needed (which is often crit) so you can efficiently improve.

niisan · 2019-01-29T14:17:47.144Z

A lot has already been said on the topic and reading everyone’s opinions definitely made me think how to improve my own feedback-giving-skills AND how to ask the right questions to get the answers I need to improve my story.

As an author, I appreciate all types of comments, from “I liked it” to “Can we do x?” or “Why did you do that?”.

I would definitely like to hear what didn’t work for people, because I can’t fix it otherwise. I’m new to writing for public consumption, so any kind of feedback is valuable. As long as the reader doesn’t say “Your story sucks” (not that I have seen it happen on this forums) and stops at that. At least tell me why do you think it’s bad. The more specific you get, the better.

As a reader I struggle with listing the negatives because a) maybe what bothers me is simply a result of difference in tastes, b) my lack of experience in both writing and giving high leveled feedback. Knowing which things I should pay attention to (eg. pacing, story inconstancy, grammar) definitely helps.

MeltingPenguins · 2019-01-29T17:53:00.432Z

On a related note:

How many people check a game’s code (as spoilery as it is) when/before giving feedback?

Eiwynn · 2019-01-29T17:56:58.365Z

MeltingPenguins:

How many people check a game’s code (as spoilery as it is) when/before giving feedback?

I still have major problems accomplishing this on published games. I’ve only successfully looked at code a few times, even with over a hundred attempts so far.

For WiP, I don’t do this unless the author requests it; I try to keep my feedback linked to a “in the wild” read instead of a “behind the curtain” read.

MIGSey · 2019-01-29T18:03:42.071Z

What about Zombie Exodus: Safe Haven ? I can understand for other games, but seeing how you are (partly) involved in its development… just curious is all.

Eiwynn · 2019-01-29T18:07:29.418Z

MIGSey:

What about Zombie Exodus: Safe Haven ? I can understand for other games, but seeing how you are (partly) involved in its development… just curious is all.

That is different. With Part 2 material, I had to understand the code better to write. Even so, Jim is in complete control of the code because he is a wiz at it and I was best at writing.

Going forward I will be moving back into the shadows, testing as before.

MeltingPenguins · 2019-01-29T18:17:39.544Z

Eiwynn:

MeltingPenguins:

How many people check a game’s code (as spoilery as it is) when/before giving feedback?

I still have major problems accomplishing this on published games. I’ve only successfully looked at code a few times, even with over a hundred attempts so far.

to me it’s become a bit of a habit (and I hope it is okay with the staff and authors) to dive into the code when i find something odd. Just to see ‘okay, we have all screamed at code after we missed something, let’s see what it is, maybe i can suggest some fix’

And I know that people checking my code helped me with a lot of things

poison_mara · 2019-01-29T18:22:41.198Z

I personally only look code if authors asks for. Most of my feedback comes from perspective of someone blind and or a role player being blind and ss see my reaction to plot twist are far useful from a blind perspective. Is also good when I make what i called testing coherence.

I choose conflicting choices and not what is looking more logical to see if game has coherence o balance choices. For instance if @Cataphrak guns I found A loop of death in one scene if you hadn’t the best stats you could ended in a eternal returning to chapter after dying in battle.

Another important check of coherence is If opposites stats shifting that could cause in game like empyrean in same scene be a great lockpicker to have never seen a lock and have no idea how use the tools. Those are details that need a game running and aren’t visible code wise.

Eiwynn · 2019-01-29T18:24:06.075Z

MeltingPenguins:

And I know that people checking my code helped me with a lot of things

Informed feedback is very helpful. Many, if not most people who are active testers here do it.

Which is why I often do not.

The author usually needs both categories of feedback - and often both types are helpful in different ways.

AChubbyBlackCat · 2019-01-29T18:26:55.983Z

Usually after I’ve given feedback or after I’ve read the demo all the way through if I’m confused about which choices/options raised or lowered some stats that I wasn’t expecting. Otherwise, I check the code to pass a pass or fail option if I haven’t passed for the fifth time in a row.

ParrotWatcher · 2019-01-29T18:32:36.855Z

MeltingPenguins:

to me it’s become a bit of a habit (and I hope it is okay with the staff and authors) to dive into the code when i find something odd. Just to see ‘okay, we have all screamed at code after we missed something, let’s see what it is, maybe i can suggest some fix’

I certainly feel that “Something’s wrong here” is far less useful than “I spotted a problem in this exact spot; here’s what’s wrong (and possibly how to fix it)”.

Dark_Stalker · 2019-01-29T18:32:46.834Z

MeltingPenguins:

How many people check a game’s code (as spoilery as it is) when/before giving feedback?

I’ve checked it once for feedback, and that was mostly to help the author with a bug. All the other times were me looking to check which stats to raise. Though I do complain about stat increases sometimes.

spunkycatninja · 2019-01-29T18:55:41.777Z

poison_mara:

I personally only look code if authors asks for. Most of my feedback comes from perspective of someone blind and or a role player being blind and ss see my reaction to plot twist are far useful from a blind perspective. Is also good when I make what i called testing coherence.

I think that way as well. Unless I’m editing, I don’t go poking around in the code unless asked. I feel the testing should be done as a player. If there are concerns, then bring it up to the author. There are lots of things to be missed by looking at just the code.

ghostsnwitches · 2019-01-29T19:12:12.336Z

I think to me it all boils down to encouraging vs discouraging. Whenever I post on someone’s wip besides pointing out mistakes I try and think about what I really liked and what drew me in. I always add that in because I think it’s important for authors -no matter how good they are at receiving feedback or how experienced- to feel encouraged to continue writing and like their hard work is recognized.

Of course, there is a limit to how much someone can do to have their feedback received well. As long as people try and make sure that what they send won’t discourage an author from writing or completely deflate them it’s enough though. To me, when feedback makes a writer want to stop writing that’s unconstructive. To be honest I don’t even think it’s done on purpose a lot of the time.

That’s why I think it’s important for people to make a conscious effort to think about how their feedback might affect the author. Not all toxic feedback is done on purpose, especially since I’d say most people on here (me included lol) don’t have any formal training in giving feedback. There are some tricks on how to do it well but even then, there isn’t a set formula. I don’t think there’s one proper way to give feedback in all honesty. So I think it’s just about remembering that these stories are all written by real people with different circumstances and trying to be sensible to that.

An argument that sort of gets thrown in a lot of discussions and this one included (though not by anyone on here I think) is that people need to grow “thicker skin” because once their work is made public they’re gonna inevitably come across harsh and downright insulting critiques. I don’t like that idea. It’s true and undeniable that there are some very blunt people and some who just want to tear others down. It’s also true that being used to those people helps. I don’t think that those that aren’t have some sort of obligation to become immune to their critiques though. It’s not realistic to expect authors to be able to dismiss all incredibly toxic critiques just because their work is public. It’s okay for them to be upset when receiving that sort of comments, even if their story is public.

poison_mara · 2019-01-29T19:40:42.590Z

I hate the have thick skin phrase. Not only authors to everyone in general. Respect is primary and without it there is not communication. However, what for one is insulting could be extremely polite to others. And that’s for both. If an author don’t want feedback if they want praises to boost their morale the author should say so. Because sometimes people just feel sad and wants being cheered. That’s fine and logic. But useful useful… is not. I am learning to be more polite in how say the things and I think is good for both sides but still author has to understand that i asks for real feedback it will be moments when They will have to hear certain negatives and they aren’t given to mocking them it is just part of testing process of polish. Testers aren’t against you.

TSSL · 2019-01-29T20:20:33.148Z

MeltingPenguins:

How many people check a game’s code (as spoilery as it is) when/before giving feedback?

I will usually play through once, and then read through the code, though depending on time, one or the other could end up falling by the wayside. If I’m interested enough in something, I like to see the full experience, and also see how everything fits together, but I also like to be able to experience it “naturally” as well. Both approaches are useful for testing; playing will give a better insight into how the game flows, how the pacing will actually be experienced, how balanced the stats are, etc. But code-reading allows you to notice things you might otherwise never play through, spot bugs more directly, etc.

expectedoperator · 2019-01-29T23:49:14.806Z

MeltingPenguins:

How many people check a game’s code (as spoilery as it is) when/before giving feedback?

I always play through normally at first – I think it’s easier to catch errors when it’s divided into pages compared to the blob of code. And the first playthroughs determine whether if the game is my cup of tea and if I should actually give my feedback at all.

Sometimes I’ll dive into the code when I’m looking for a specific issue, like a continuity error or when a sentences that need editing have a variable (like the MC’s name or something – that way the author can just copy and find the sentence quickly if they want). If I happen to find any other errors along the way that’s an added bonus.

ashestoashes018 · 2019-01-30T04:32:52.263Z

MeltingPenguins:

How many people check a game’s code (as spoilery as it is) when/before giving feedback?

I usually only do it if I encounter a game-breaking bug, to see if I can help. In other instances, like private betas, I have scrubbed through the code top to bottom, to make sure there are no inconsistencies, etc.

I try not to do it in order to “cheat the system”, so to speak, though I may do it on a longer game, just to try to help with issues, without having to replay from the beginning.

spunkycatninja:

There are lots of things to be missed by looking at just the code.

Maybe it’s just how my brain works, but I honestly enjoy the games more with the code. Not for any cheat-y purposes…I just like reading them that way. This may just be due to how much time I spend staring at code for fun, though, so 100% ymmv.

ghostsnwitches:

is that people need to grow “thicker skin” because once their work is made public they’re gonna inevitably come across harsh and downright insulting critiques.

I wouldn’t say thicker skin, necessarily, but part of showing art to the world is accepting that not everybody is going to like it and that it may not be perfect. Especially for new authors, this is really difficult, and things can all feel like a personal attack. I’ve been publicly writing for +/-14 years, and I still sometimes feel personally attacked by constructive criticism, even when it is worded as nicely as possible.

So, while I don’t think “growing a thick skin” would be quite apropos, there is a certain amount of experience and maturity that comes from critique and learning how to step back and not view it as a personal attack.

ghostsnwitches:

It’s not realistic to expect authors to be able to dismiss all incredibly toxic critiques

I don’t believe anyone has said it is. Personally, I have only ever meant this in the context of genuine constructive criticism, not toxic criticism. Even sincere, polite, constructive criticism can be painful to read.

poison_mara:

Respect is primary and without it there is not communication

Agreed, especially with…

poison_mara:

what for one is insulting could be extremely polite to others

Textual mediums are very difficult to convey tone with. I have made it a habit to comment that “xyz is not a personal attack” if I am concerned that debating something may be perceived as such.

And, just to be on the safe side: none of this is aimed st anyone in particular. I’m just expanding upon ideas put forth. Please let me know if anything came across offensively, as that’s not my intent