Consolidated Gender Lock Discussion Thread

Game Development
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If you force people to control a male or female character, whether gay/bi/straight, you’re going to have complaints. But that’s okay as long as you’re prepared for a potential loss of sales. Just do what you think is right for the story.

Myself, I have a tendency to prefer more story driven stories, so yes . . . when I write, I tend to use pre-determined characters. However, there’s still room for allowing the reader to make choices that the particular character might make. A violent character? Have the reader determine whether they control their impulses or not, as an example. Do they immediately feel regret as well if they lose it?

While I’d be tempted to write a pre-determined character from the 1st person, I’ve lately been toying with the idea of multiple point of view characters, written in the 3rd person. Don’t know about past or present tense however. That would, while people would still be forced to play specific genders etc., at least let people have a bit of time in their preferred gender’s shoes. Plus, I feel it gets closer to a ‘book’ feel, like an epic and allows a more in-depth story, though it’d be complex as you’d need reactivity from the character choices, impacting each other. (That said, I’m also open to writing from the 2nd person and having the reader choose their gender etc. and games/stories that put the game first rather than story. All depends on what I’m writing.)

Regardless, I’ve rambled here and gone a bit off-topic. But, to support what I’m saying, I’ll just point to Life is Strange, The Walking Dead Season 1 & 2, The Wolf Among Us, Dreamfall Chapters, Tales from the Borderlands and Game of Thrones (Telltale’s game) that show you can have people inhabit a set character’s shoes. (When playing those games, though I’m sure plenty of people do, I’ve never actually thought of myself as ‘being the main character’. Rather, I’m just trying to make choices on behalf of someone else, or trying to place myself in their shoes, thus testing what ‘I’ would do if I were ever in a similar situation.)

In closing, no matter what you do, you’re always going to tick off someone. No point worrying about it, and there’s virtually nothing you can’t/shouldn’t do as long as it’s right for the story.

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63

David, I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. But I think there’s got to be more to it than, “Just do what you think is right for the story.”

The story sometimes gives us a clear answer… but not always. Especially if the author is working in imaginative or speculative fiction, rather than historical or realistic.

What I’d say to the majority of people writing a genderlocked game is: Own the decision, and don’t fall back on “the story/the gameworld made me do it.” You’re writing what you want to write, the story you like and have the passion to (hopefully) finish. You have aesthetic judgments about how the story/world should look. Own them; don’t write as if they own you.

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64

Actually good idea, relationships should work that way in games, throught it should be harder for example to get character to agree to relationships if you dont swing his way, essentially if someone is gay the having woman PC having relationship with him should be harder. this is Reasonable, doesnt make everyone bisex, and gets everyone happy.

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@FairyGodfeather

agreed, but we should treat everyone equally

i often find either White-Straight male fanatics , or Feminist fanatics that yell if there is white straight male no matter that it is actually explained with reason for Example Sabres of Infinity has White Straight Male Noble, and it actually has reasons for this, so in short the extremist are only cosmetically different all of the want to push their way, instead of dialog like Reasonable people, Just look on Gamergate Asholles on Gamers side Asholles on Feminist side, and normal people arent even heard over the cries of : Misoginy , SWJ , etc.

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@CaesarCzech

Feminism is about equality.

I’m not going to touch those Gamergate comments with a barge-pole. I will link to Choice of Game’s official statement though https://www.choiceofgames.com/2014/10/choice-of-games-opposes-gamergate/

The protagonist of the Infinity series doesn’t need to be straight straight. Unless he’s changed his mind recently, I read that @Cataphrak was planning for two male romances, three female.

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@CaesarCzech

You are mistaking Equalitism with Empowering and Old Feminists with New Feminists
Yep if you are talking about Sufragete you are rights, but unfortunately Modern Feminists are more about gender-based Affirmivative action than about Equality.
as for gamergate, Thats prime example how good thing things can get hijacked by trolls and asholes.it started as things against corruption of games journalist but it went downhill, while questioning journalist if he had affair with game dev, may be legit because it might be conflict of interest, that is not any justification for starting to call that game dev slut and stuff, im personally against that dev(reasons not discusing,but i has to do with Totalbiscuit,) but that means in gaming industry, NOT DEATHREATS not JUMPING INTO HER SEX LIFE AND PERSONAL THINGS, Gamergate was good idea, but it became something horrible,
BTW i think i found new nickname for GG “Lucifer”
anyway thing that people are angry about is that while GG gets comptemnt it deserves, the radicals and scumbags, from the pro-feminist side gets freepass, its kinda like WW II warcrimes, Germans were punished, Russians werent even tried. im not against-feminists im pro-equalitian , but if i hate one thing its hypocrisy.

and btw i would like to thank you and rest of COG for allowing discusions on this matter,(i got banned on alternatehistory.com for explaining Pehida motivations, even throught i didnt agree with them, so this discusion is pleasant surprise.)

The protagonist of the Infinity series doesn’t need to be straight
straight. Unless he’s changed his mind recently, I read that @Cataphrak was planning for two male romances, three female. Sorry i just wanted to use it as example and did poor job of it.

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68

i dont think we need another forum in a flame war regarding gamergate so why dont we ignore this before it gets nasty and talk about gamergate ants instead?

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actually good idea. start.

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what is your favorite one?mine is leptogenys

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Quote: Leliana"Oh no what i got myself into"

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The thing is…not one game can make everyone happy…so as long as you are happy with the game, go for it :slight_smile:

Most of my game ideas are gender locked because they are more book like and are about a certain character. The reason being: I like the characters that were created in my head…and I simply want to share their story…or rather let other people create their story. (meaning: set personality, but different paths) yes, that can be limiting but also allow for deeper characters in a way. not everyone will like that, but that’s ok with me :wink:

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73

This is a fascinating topic and one I’ve been giving thought to as I’ll be writing a “traditional novel” version of my WIP so I’ll have to decide the MC’s gender, hero name, sexual orientation, etc.; allll the things that I let the reader currently choose.

I’m really leaning toward having the MC someone other than a white straight male, if nothing else but to give it a different feel, but as one of those myself, I worry that I won’t do a good job conveying how a woman thinks about things…or how a gay male thinks about guys he’s attracted to.

Do people take this into consideration? I’d be embarrassed it I mistreated the character in some way. As they say, writers are often advised to write what they know.

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74

Point of order: The protagonist in Sabres/Guns of Infinity is not required to be either straight or white. The average Tierran is, in fact, rather darker-skinned than the guy on SoI’s cover (That was the result of me not understanding lighting and skin tones well enough when I did that piece two years ago). As @FairyGodfeather mentioned already, I’ve got homosexual romances in the works (with men whom your dragoon has already met perhaps!)

I honestly don’t have a problem with people criticising me for picking a male aristocrat as my player character for Sabres. Considering the fact that Sabres as a whole is the examination of power and the idea of established social orders, I’d me more concerned if the criticism was that I had written a male power fantasy like all the other male power fantasies.

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75

Perfect example of what I mean by “owning it” in my last post: if you own your aesthetic decisions, you’re comfortable being judged by them. Including by all those people who (you’re confident) are wrong, or at least looking for something different than what you care about/intended to write.

(Like me, in Cataphrak’s case. I’m on record as thinking that Sabres would be better with a Broadsides style genderflip. Course, I’m also on record as a massive fan, notwithstanding that point of divergence.)

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76

@CaesarCzech We don’t ban people on these forums for engaging in civil discussion.

And you’re writing a superhero game. Is there something you’ve not told us? Do you have a secret identity, perhaps? :laughing:

I figure, at least if you try that’s what matters. I’m sure you’ll have plenty of people offering to read and make suggestions anyway to keep you on the right track. I’d say you’re likely overthinking things, but in a good way, at least you are thinking about it. I’d also suggest a bisexual protagonist.

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78

Here here. I agree.
Might I add that I also don’t mind character-locking in many cases, which would be playing a predetermined character. For me, it seems like a character can be written more in depth and is more likely to have real personality rather than a blank-slate feel.

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79

I moved the posts over here, since we’ve already got a thread (more than one, really) where this topic’s been discussed.

@FXL3, I think the authors of Choice of Romance would agree that the game was written from a standpoint that is feminine in Western culture (and specifically the Henry VIII history that so clearly informs their story) – but the game put significant work into coming up with a setting where it would make sense for that “feminine” role to be playable by people regardless of biological sex. Whether or not you think that they succeeded, it’s worth noting that the dissonance you experienced is something they were deliberately setting out to create, not the result of lazy pronoun-switching.

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80

I don’t care. What annoys the tar out of me is the people that come out to woodworks to try bullying authors, arguing with them endlessly about it (and being quite rude and pushy). I have no idea how to code and figuring out how to create an in-depth player experience while not genderlocking would either mean waaaaay to much work and essentially having to create two separate games. Or, creating a super bland world where people may as well be barbie dolls for all gender, race, etc. influence who they are and their perspective. So I simply won’t be trying to make a game using choicescript.

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81

We do our best now to discourage bullying. There’s a rule specifically that addresses the situation you’ve mentioned.

If you witness anything like that please flag it.

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82

I don’t think that’s happened in a few years now, but let me know if I’m wrong. As FG said, if you do see it, flag it.

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