Consolidated Gender Lock Discussion Thread

I, for one, vastly prefer HGs and WIPs with gender selectable MCs to those with gender-locked onesand also think they are much better in most ways.

Firstly, because it, along with other customization and background options for the MC, allows me and other readers more flexibility when it comes to choose what kind of MC we want to go with what kind of story. With a gender selectable MC you can explore the kind of story beats that have mostly, or even only, been used for male or female protagonists and decide if you want to explore the story in what has been the traditional manner or if you rather want to take the opportunity to do things the more unusual way and explore a story beat usually reserved for male protagonists with a female MC or those usually reserved for a female protagonist with a male MC. With a gender-locked protagonist on the other one, you’re stuck with whichever approach the writer prefers.

It’s also no secret that the great majority of COG and HG enjoyers clearly prefer or even require being able to play MCs of their own gender. Gender-locking the MC make all of those who belong in that “category” and who are of a different gender from the gender the MC in question is locked too feel excluded. And, let’s be honest here, it is the opposite of inclusive and excludes potential readers/players just as much as when a HG/WIP forces gays or lesbians to play a straight MC or force POC to play a white MC. So it’s the opposite of COG’s philosophy of trying to make IFs that are inclusive for everyone.

When it comes to making MCs, I really enjoy having a lot of flexibilty in how I make them in terms of abilities, personality, background and other things that make a difference in story/game and/or to me personally. And I do think having the opportunity to tweak MCs to make them more relatable to you and/or make tMCs that are like the protagonists you feel you see too rarely in non.interactive fiction, is one of the areas where this kind of interactive fiction has the strongest potential. But, at least when it comes to most of the gender-locked male HGs and WIPs that I’ve noticed, the MC is either locked to being some all across the board powerful power fantasy guy, some kind of fighter or, more rarely some kind of military character who isn’t necessarily a fighter in the strict sense. I have zero interest in those first two kind of male MCs and I’m leery of even the third one. With the possible exception of the third of those options, it locks me as a player/reader into a particular box and leaves what I consider to be some of the best parts about this kind of IFs by the wayside.

In the same way, most HGs and WIPs with genderlocked male MC also in other ways strongly “lock” what kind of MC you can play, they even more strongly lcok you to story beats that have usually or maybe even always been used with male protagonists. And in doing so, they take away the opportunity to de facto tell more unusual stories that you can get with COGs,HGs and WIPs with a gender selectable MC and the very important quality of exploring the kind of stories usually mainly read by those of a different gender and with MCs of your own gender. It has given guys the opportunity to experience the romances of romance-based HG series like The Wayhaven Chronicles with a male MC and given girls and women the opportunity to explore a tough action/heist HG series like Breach with a female MC. Having those opportunities, whether you choose to use them or not, enrichens us, and, I’ll even claim, empowers us as players/ and readers and as people in general. And, at least in actual practice, you can only get that particular kind of experience from HGs, WIPs and regular COGs with a gender selectable MC.I have paid less attention to the HGs and WIPs where the MC is genderlocked to female than those where the MC is genderlocked to male, but for those where I’ve read the description, it seems like they’re based on the kind of stories where the protagonist are usually female or even, such as in the case of The Courting of Miss Bennett, being based on an actual (and old) story with a female protagonist. And if those HGs and WIPs are representative of the story beats of the WIPs and HGs with a genderlocked female MC, it creates the same problems as the general trend for HGs and WIPs with genderlocked male MCs.

And I’m worried, if the genderlocked WIPs and HGs should ever become dominant, that we’d end up with a situation where we have HGs that are only(or at least almost only for guys and HGs that are only(or almost ony for women and girls in the same way you have boy toys and girl toys. While there definitely are HG series and standalones that are more popular with girls and women than with guys and vice versa, there are still enough people of the other genders enjoying the gender-selectable HG series and standalones in question that none of those are in danger of becoming an exclusive boys club or girls club. But with genderlocked HGs that is much more of a real danger.

Outside of writers lacking the ability to write MCs with a gender different from their own(which is a valid reason, just like not every writer is able to write a convincing protagonist of a gender different from their own, not every IF will necessary be able to do so either), there are only two situations I can think of where choosing a genderlocked MC over a gender selectable MC when writing a choice-based IF. The first is, like in the Infinity Saga, where both the setting is such that allowing for MCs of more than one gender will require a lot of extra work and the HG or WIP in question is already really extensive in terms of content, so that that there de facto isn’t enough time and space to do that if you ever want it to be finished. The second is when the story as such is about specific issues experienced by people of the gender-locked gender in particular, perhaps also in conjunction witha particular sexual and romantic orientation. A HG or WIP about growing up gay in area where homophobic attitudes and very traditional male values prevailed, for instance, would be an example of such as an HG or WIP, just like an HG or WIP that was about growing up a woman in the Victorian era and wanting to work and create your own life instead of becoming a housewife.

But apart from those cases, I’d say that making the MC gender selectable instead of gender-locked, makes the HG or WIP better and enrichens it. This also extends to HGs and WiPs that explore gender issues, but where the story isn’t only about the experiences of persons of a particular gender. Because, while having the MC being genderlocked to one particular gender in theory(but rarely in practice, I think), can allow the HG or WIP in question to delve more deeply into that gendered experience, a HG or WIP with a gender- selectable MCallows the reader/player to contrast the experiences of those genders, by simply making changes in the narrative based on what gender the MC the reader/player is currently playing has. By making different playthroughs with differently gendered MCs, the reader/player gets a wider experience of the gender relations and other gender issues than you’d get with a genderlocked MC. And I think that’s a better or at least more efficient way of bringing those issues to life.

That is, if you want, the HG or WIP in question to explore those issues instead of just showing a comparatively egalitarian setting that aren’t otherwise to unusual when it comes to gender relations and other gender issues personally prefer it when the HG/WIP in question either don’t really delve into this or does it in a way that is at least kind of original. Let’s be honest, there have been plenty of stories told through the lens of or criticizing older, more patriarchal gender roles and though I can see the arguments for not ignoring them in IF that is explicitly historical, when it comes to insights and experiences. I can get from the story in question, at least when it comes to purely fictional worlds, it wouldn’t really tell me anything I haven’t already learned from regular books and stories. I completely respect those who need to have the experience of being a woman who have to face certain obstacle or otherwise have to deal with gender related issues in order for it to feel more relatable,and other people who feel the need for something similar, though.

Examples of two IFs that handle gender issues in an upfront way that I find interesting and which enhanced my experience as a reader/player is in Shattered Eagle with its matriarchal society ( which, though, not completely original, is a far more rarely used story beat than another sort of patriarchal fantasy society, or Crème de la Crème and its follow ups, with theiregalitarian and apparently no significant gender roles to mention setting. .

3 Likes

I’ll be honest, gender locking is… fine. It can serve a purpose and provide for interesting stories, given the author isn’t just doing it for no reason. What grinds my gears a lot more is sexuality locking the MC (not ROs, so long as options exist for multiple sexualities among the cast), almost (in fact, I can’t think of an example of the opposite) exclusively to be straight. I’ve seen some works on the forum and talked to some prospective authors outside of it, and there have been multiple who claim to be “not comfortable” writing homosexual romance or claiming its “too much work” (I’ve also heard the same excuse for gender-locking, which is just as bullshit). What doubly baffles me is an author willing to write heterosexual romance for a male and female protagonist, but suddenly becoming squeamish at the prospect of allowing homosexual romance.

The philosophy I take with my own writing is that CoG has always been in an inclusive company, and I want to bring that spirit into my work. My work is set in a more sexually liberated future, I see no reason block characters from pursuing who they want. My only real block is poly routes, purely because I don’t think any of my ROs are especially compatible with one another. If I saw a route I felt would work I’d probably include it.

This is an odd habit that crops up time and again. I myself have gotten asks requesting weird divergences in the plot that would just be wholly different games, and basically every author I personally know has experienced the same. Some people get weird ideas that’d be best served in fan fiction, not through making the author derail their own story to let the MC give up on the plot and become a tungsten miner or whatever.

25 Likes

I honestly think this all depends. As of right now, my projects are all one of these gender-locked, straight romances. Because I want them to be a bit spicy, but I don’t know how much yet, I want to write it as something I’d read. Because I know how those scenes work in that set up. Will my second draft be more inclusive? Maybe. It entirely depends on how the first draft turns out. But for now, I’m writing what I’d want to read.

What I’m trying to say is, people being less inclusive than others doesn’t mean they’re doing it out of malice or laziness. For some people, they make these decisions because doing more is more complicated, or they don’t know how or are uncomfortable with it at this time, or even because they just want to write the story they want using choicescript. There are other IF apps that all for more specific stories, but they don’t use choicescript.

So while I completely understand wanting inclusivity in HG, and agree that it’s disappointing to not be included in an interesting story, I don’t think it’s fair to expect anything from the authors in this forum, other than being respectful.

14 Likes

Remember that some authors (i.e. Russian authors) may be in danger of breaking laws in their countries if they include certain content.

Reasons for writing decisions and development strategies are not always straight-forward, or clean.

My personal belief regarding gender choices in historical/traditional settings is that what is “known” today about the past is often incomplete or even erroneous.

For example, an ancient Egyptian fresco was recently discovered celebration the homosexual relationship of two men, something that changes what we “know” about that time-period and the Egyptians who lived in that area.

What this means to IF writing is that authors have much more literary freedom than sometimes they realize.

15 Likes

I won’t comment on the “too much work” aspect, but i think it’s highly arrogant to just write off as “bullshit” the idea someone could be uncomfortable with writing (which involves visualization) of scenes which are not compatible with their sexuality. Regardless if it’s homosexual author becoming squeamish at the mental image of heterosexual pairing, or the other way around.

14 Likes

I’m with you here. The author is pouring possibly hundreds or thousands of hours of work into the project. The reader might spend hours reading it, but the person with the pen chooses what they want to write. For me, writing is about fulfillment in its deepest sense. It gives me purpose in life. That’s why I want to write what I’m interested in.

9 Likes

Are there any examples of recent WIPs which are locked to heterosexual romance? I don’t think I’ve seen any, and I’m fairly active in watching for new WIPs and trying them out.

Plenty of romantic gestures (eg. hugging, kissing, carrying) can be applied to homosexual romance and heterosexual romance, so I don’t think it is a big deal unless one is writing something very explicit.

Edit: ok, I’ve seen the WIP mentioned by @Anna_B , although the thread has been inactive for over a year and I don’t think it’s a common thing. Although I can respect those reasons mentioned. Tell the story you want to tell. :slightly_smiling_face:

I wrote a gender-locked female game. It was largely inspired by otome visual novels, which I play sometimes as I feel they’re more focused on love and relationships compared to the male equivalent. I could always add a gender choice with some extra code at character creation… but would you consider that a good reason? :innocent:

3 Likes

I find this opinion rather baffling. Nobody is forcing you to play a game - a game exists and you can play it or not. If somebody wants to write a story about a black musketeer in 18th century France or about genderfluid poisoner from London, that is also ‘excluding a certain portion of the audience’ and that’s why I find this mindset (that different pov = exclusion) limiting.

Every author’s got their boundaries and their own ideas and that should be respected. Creatives are not content mills at the mercy of what the loud majority (or even louder minority) wants. HGs don’t have to follow CoG format and mission statements as long as they are within the rules outlined for HG - otherwise we’d just call it all ‘CoG’ and be done with it.

13 Likes

Wait, you mean people aren’t forced to play every WIP that comes out with a gun pressed to their head? I thought everyone’s experience with the genre was like mine.

But in all seriousness, the weaponization of terms like “inclusive” or “exclusive” is another thing I hate about this whole discourse. To exclude someone is to deny them access to something. You’re not excluded because a game doesn’t have an option you’d like it to have. And if you decide not to play that game because it’s genderlocked or whatever, that’s totally fair, but it’s also your choice. It’s not exclusion, just you not liking something.

Also, you gotta love how contradictory all these inflammatory terms are. By making a genderlocked game, the author is forcing women to play a male character (somehow) while also preventing them from playing the game by excluding them. Those writers are so evil they’re doing two mutually exclusive things at once! Even the laws of logic aren’t safe from this small minority of Hosted Games authors.

14 Likes

No matter what an author wants to do, it’s going to turn off somebody, might as well just write what you want to write and live with the consequences, there’s always going to be a fan base that’s interested in your work

12 Likes

There seem to be some strong reactions to people voicing their opinions against gender-related restrictions in books. I don’t understand where does the assumption that we want to begrudge authors who genderlock games and demand them to change their story comes from. Just like people who say they like it when games limit their gender choices or change the narrative based on gender, we are also allowed to express our dislike of these elements. Isn’t that the whole point of discussion threads? As long as everyone is respectful of writers and each other, no one’s opinion needs to be shut down.

I think that discouraging expression of opinions of that kind doesn’t benefit anyone, while voicing them can lead to positive results. My main motivation to participate in discussions on the topic of gender is to encourage writers (and other readers) to see the picture in a more nuanced way. Perhaps someone is considering genderlocking a book because they worry that people of other genders will not be interested in playing it. Or someone is thinking of adding gender-specific choices and they’re unsure if that’s a good idea, or if it would be better to make everything available for every gender. Discussions like that can help them to weigh all the pros and cons of either decision. If a writer is already sure what they want their book to be like, those sentiments does not apply to their current project.

12 Likes

We’re not assuming everyone who dislikes genderlocks is a jerk who hates the author and wants to rewrite their story. We’re just talking specifically about the people who do, because they’re the problem we’re discussing.

Again, the problem isn’t when someone says “I don’t like set-gender games” or “I think this project could benefit from gender selection because…” or stuff like that. People only get pissed when someone proclaims themselves the champion of inclusivity and the heroic opposition to the lazy, exclusive author. Voicing your opinions while treating them as opinions is helpful, but going

It is the opposite of inclusive and excludes potential readers/players just as much as when a HG/WIP forces gays or lesbians to play a straight MC or force POC to play a white MC.

is anything but. No one appreciates their project being framed like a hostage situation with their readers as victims. Surely we can agree to that, regardless of what kind of games we prefer.

13 Likes

This is where context is essential to understand the issue.

When discussing CoG and HG, the “exclusionary” terminology has different connotations than when discussing “exclusionary” terminology of gaming in general. Yet, because CoG and HG IFs are part of gaming as a whole, they can’t escape the issues involved with gaming in general.

Which leads me to the following:

The “somehow” being forced to play a male character is by the very fact that there often is no other choice or alternative to play as a female in gaming.

The exclusion is a very real dynamic, because even in 2024, there are many “suits” in the gaming world with the power to nix a game or a game’s development because the dev team’s inclusive efforts fall outside of the long-held (and erroneous) belief that video games’ audience only consist of teen and young adult males.

Even here at CoG and HG, where this longstanding bias has been undermined and challenged, the sins of others are a legacy that weighs on the audience that these games are made for.

This is about a different type of logic, outside of Webster’s dictionary definitions, where inclusivity by representation and acknowledging that an entire audience outside the established stereotype exists.

19 Likes

I think a lot of this attitude stems from a frustration with the fact that there is a lot of genderlocked media (not just in interactive fiction, I mean, in general), and a desire to change that status-quo with any means available.

Remember that just because someone is speaking authoritatively does not mean they are actually an authority. What it means is that they are stating their opinion in a way which is trying to get you, an author, to take it more seriously. Whether you do that or not is going to be entirely contingent on you.

Personally, as someone who’s “flagship” series is genderlocked (and class-locked, among other things), I’ve run across a lot of feedback from people saying that they won’t pick up the Dragoon Saga because of that genderlock, and I think that’s fine. I made an artistic decision, and I accept the consequences of that decision. I am not entitled to their approval, but nor am I beholden to any demands they might make, no matter how authoritatively they word themselves or what moral principles they appeal to. Wars of Infinity and Masters of Infinity will continue to be genderlocked. The Dragonet Trilogy (which is the working title for the sequel series I’m planning) will also be genderlocked - but genderlocked female. Unless someone puts forward an argument which I find sufficiently compelling to dump about a decade and a half’s worth of worldbuilding and design work in the trash for, those planned works are going to stay that way.

When you publish, you’re going to get a lot of feedback, and you’re not going to be able to do a goddamn thing about it. Some of it will be positive and make you feel good, some of it will offer useful helpful criticism in a civil and encouraging way. Some of it will offer valid criticism couched in negativity, and some of it will be ignorant dogshit opinions from ignorant dogshit human beings. You may have the urge to call out those people personally, but that’s basically the equivalent of screaming into the void - even if it doesn’t drag you into pointless internet beef which isn’t going to help anyone.

What you need to remember then is that you have the power here as the author, to take or leave any of that feedback as you see fit. You can choose to accept the feedback offered because you think it’s valid, or you could discard it as useless. The goal of feedback is to affect change within a work or future works by the same creator, and you get to choose whether the person submitting that feedback achieves that goal, or fails in it. The most effective thing you can do against feedback which you consider out of line or high-handed or offensive is to throw it in the trash.

39 Likes

Idk if anyone has brought this up before, but we are all individuals. Our upbringing, cultures, schooling, and beliefs make us all different, so there is probably always going to be something in a game that annoys us. Our games writers take on a difficult task making gender inclusive games, particularly if they do not have much experience outside of their own community or age group or they are unfamiliar with the US way of life, as so many of us are. Those that do attempt this, even if they end up pleasing very few, should still be encouraged because if we give honest and sympathetic feedback, not harsh criticism, they may try and do better next time. That has to be a win/win situation.
With most games having demos, if we don’t like the first few chapters, why buy the game then give it a bad rap because it doesn’t fit? It doesn’t mean its a bad game, its merely personal taste, and in the scheme of things that should not be important. Except a nasty neg in the first weeks of a game on Steam can ruin the sales for that author, and discourage them from writing another game, and that means the whole community misses out.

11 Likes

Just a thought: it’s always possible that one likes the first few chapters, but then end up not liking what comes after.

5 Likes

True, but why be nasty? Why not just chalk it up to a bad decision and leave it at that? We tend to be so quick to criticise but perhaps we should be faster to be supportive and try to broaden our tolerance for the creative visions and storytelling abilities of games makers.

4 Likes

I personally don’t like genderlocked games, I feelil like more often than not the experience within them that is often required by the setting or artistic decision, no matter how well written is just not going to appeal to me. It’s less the gender within which the game is locked. Because despite the fact I exclusively play female characters. I find myself turned off from female genderlocked games too.

This is not to say those stories shouldn’t exist or can’t be good. It’s just something an author has to expect will limit their reader pool. A lot of them games here have really gotten the entire idea of COG and HG games to be a CYOA where you are in control. It’s not like other more traditional CYOA where you follow a set character like the telltale games. A big appeal is that bit about character creation. Be it to accurately place yourself and live out a fantasy in an alternative world. Or to just roleplay as archetypes and see how the world reacts to your actions.

A genderlocked game tends to be about as close as you can get to those telltale games. Where you have one set character and while you can certainly affect the story. You aren’t playing as you. You are playing as that person. And so it sort of is outside the mold and is certainly not as appealing to some readers who greatly value customisation. Even if your genderlocked character can still be customised in all but gender.

It’s sort of why when I eventually get to my second project come 2027 if I presumably finish my first. Despite the historical setting it will be, I would still handwave the setting away and allow female characters. Because while it would be massively anachronistic. I personally just like playing as a woman. Irrespective of where it is. It is a adherence I am willing to overlook. Others may not and at the end of the day. That’s fine.

Although one counterpoint to my entire argument is despite the fact the infinity series is genderlocked male. I still played through it all and just head canoned my character being a woman and I had a good time. So what do I know. Maybe this entire discussion is moot.

6 Likes

Since I was at least partly the target here, I’d like to respond, even though there are already other people who have already given very good answers to your criticisms, maybe better ones than this comment.

Firstly, though I can see why you react so strongly to my wording in that passage and feel that it was too severe, there’s still no getting around that gender-locked HGs and WIPs make many people feel excluded and de facto does exclude many people from playing/reading the WIP or HG in question, in the same way that HGs and WIPs with no real options of playing a gay and/or lesbian MC will also de facto exclude many gays and/or lesbians. As @Eiwynn already mentioned in her reply, this is a kind of exclusion different from the exclusion you get when it’s just that a game and/or story just isn’t your cup of tea or there are some elements of the story and/or gameplay you just don’t like and can’t get behind. Rather, this is being de facto excluded because of who you are, whether this is to with you being a woman, a man, gay, lesbian or another identity of the same importance. This includes the kind of IF stories that otherwise would have been right up your alley, but because the IF in question forces you to play a particular gender in order to play/read it does de facto exclude those who aren’t willing to play a MC of own different gender in the same way IFs with only straight romances or only ROs of one particular gender forces gays an/or lesbians to play a different sexual and/or romantic orientation from their own, if they both want to play/read the IF in question and also have the opportunity for their MCs to experience romances.

Yes, I could probably have worded that passage in a more diplomatic and less forceful way(at least if I’d had more time and energy left at the time of writing that passage). But no matter what I did, I still wouldn’t be able to change what is fundamentally an unpleasant message for those who are writing or have written HGs and WIPs with a gender-locked MC. Which, like I wrote earlier, is that many people will then feel and be excluded because of who they are, as opposed to them just not liking the storyline, setting, style or what have you of the WIP or HG in question. That doesn’t mean that making a HG or WIP with a gender-locked protagonist makes you a bad person as such and like I wrote in my previous comment, I’m aware that there are other important concerns that may lead a writer to choose a genderlocked MC for their HG or WIP. But the point is, it will always come with its costs, and this is one of them

Another reason I brought this up is that it’s no secret that a big part of the philosophy of Choice of Games is that their IFs should be inclusive, so that you can play/read and enjoy them, no matter your gender,sexual and romantic orientation, ethnicity and/or any other equally important identities. Since this is an important part of the philosophy of the company, I thought it was important to also make an argument about inclusivity and exclusivity a part of my comment. It’s also no secret that regular COGs, as opposed to HGs, requires the MCs to be gender selectable. And from what I understand(if someone with deeper knowledge than me knows different, please feel free to correct me) this has a lot to do with the conpany philosophy of wanting their IFs to feel inclusive for everyone, no matter their gender, sexual and roamtic orientation, ethnicity or other identities. So in order to write a regular COG and enjoy the benefits of doing that, you have to sacrifice parts of your artistic vision if that includes the IF in question being gender-locked. Though the people at the company would probably word this in a milder and more diplomatic way than I did and I’m not claiming that there aren’t also differences between their viewpoints and mine regarding gender-lcoked MCs, it does seem that we share many of the same concerns when it comes to inclusivity vs exclusivity and AFAICT this also also extends to the use of gender-locked MCs. Though HGs with genderlocked MCs still can be and also have been released, the fact that genderlocked MCs aren’t allowed in regular COGs, at least leaves the impression that the company as such have a clear preference for gender selectable MCs. And I must admit that I’m quite surprised by how you treat inclusivity/exclusivity in the sense of how welcoming IFs are to people with all kinds of identites as if it’s just the same as inclusivity/exclusivity in the sense of how many people are liking a particular genre, style, story beat etc in a way that in actual practice seems to add up to a dismissal of the latter and its importance, given that we’re discussing this in the forum of a company that has made ensuring the first kind of exclusivity as an important part of their philosophy.

And, just to be clear,I’m not forcing anyone to write anything, I’ll still leave that up to the writer and while I certainly can and often try to influence writers, like other people in this forum, with my opinions, I have no supernatural or earthly powers to force them to write anything anyway. Like I said, I can also see that there probably are instances where a gender-locked MC is the only viable solution, though I still think those instances are few and far between. But I do think that in the vast majority of instances, having a gender selectable MC, is by far the best option, if the writer is able to do so in at least a sort of convincing manner. And I won’t deny that t will do my best to convince people of a different opinion of this.

I also have to admit that I’m a bit frustrated that the part about gender-locked MCs vs inclusivity/exclusivity seems to be the only part of my original comment that people have paid attention to when that, though still important, only constituted a comparatively small part of a much longer comment that included other arguments that I focused on much more.I’m not saying that I’m totally blameless in this, people tend to react more strongly to strongly worded arguments, for better or worse. But it would be nice if people didn’t only focus on and respond to that particular passage, but also to the comment as a whole, including my other arguments and thoughts, which I like to think were worded in a milder and more diplomatic manner.than that particular passage.

3 Likes

It feels like this thread gets resuscitated every few years so people can have the exact same discussion in it. It always boils down to this:

  1. Authors have a right to genderlock

  2. But they probably shouldn’t, because it’s deeply unpopular

  3. If they do it anyhow, and that turns you off as a reader, feel free to tell them so, politely. That’s useful feedback, to know why a reader no longer wants to read your story

  4. If they stay the course, either learn to deal with it and enjoy the story anyhow or quietly step away and find something more up your alley

End. That’s it. Don’t overcomplicate the situation, y’all. And don’t get acrimonious over something so small.

27 Likes