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I don’t assume that. The upcoming wave of non-straight men protagonists is great, but it will still be only a few stepping stones to create a stair the size of Everest to equalize the representation of women and the LGBTQ+ community in media. Advocating for more straight men to be represented in media, which is what the core of this discussion is about, doesn’t achieve that goal.

Your point is very clear to me.

L-O-L. I promise you that writing women and LGBTQ+ protagonists won’t push out straight men unless they’re sexist and homophobic/transphobic, and if they are, we want to push those straight men out because they have no right to be in any space.

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That would be all very well, but… no one is discriminating against heterosexual males here, and no one is suggesting discriminating against heterosexual males :confused:

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No, literally no one is saying or will ever say that it’s okay to discriminate against anyone.

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You are. The discussion is about female and LGBT+ rep in fiction. No one is taking to the streets to murder heterosexual men. 300+ trans people have been murdered this year alone, just so you know, not sure how many straight men have had the same treatment for being straight.

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I don’t know what you’re reacting to if there is no “yet,” then. We just want more stuff with women and LGBT characters to get closer to a balance, and we’re really protective when people are critical of that. And I guess this grew out of the Heart’s Choice thing, which has no m/f games yet, and I don’t think anyone’s saying that Heart’s Choice must not publish such a game, just that we’re very happy about the female and LGBT-based games that are coming forward in the line.

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Yeah as a straight white male I don’t think it’s likely I will be attacked or victimised in anything like the way other groups have, or at least not ever for those specific aspects. So sympathy for those who have. This is probably off topic to the question of gender specific games on here though. :sweat_smile:

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This is a gentle reminder to please direct responses solely at the subject matter of the post, not at each other. Furthermore, please be conscientious that on this forum we implore everyone to keep an open mind and be respectful towards each other.

Finally, if you find yourself beginning to get upset it is always a good idea to take a deep breath and review your post.

Please be kind to each other and keep an open mind!

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For me, the less I see Pre-determined gender games, the more I accept them. If I see a ton of games that only have a male MC and then I see another being released, I’m going to roll my eyes. I like playing as a female. However, I don’t see that many games on the this site that have only male MC’s, so I am more likely going to play it if it gets good reviews.

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@Hakumei88

True. Your Walmart example has merit, but only as it applies to Walmart. Which is a multimillion dollar and international company that is aimed to cater to pretty much everyone’s need/wants.

CoG is different. It’s not Walmart, but rather Barnes and Noble.

Interactive fiction, as a whole, isn’t a niche market.

Well, it is and it isn’t. But that’s not the focus right now.

However, CoG is a niche market since their main pitch is the elevation of minority group individuals from secondary characters, if you will, to protagonist.

A valid point.

An author does have the right to write whatever they wish. However, a reader does not have a right to ask for what they want to read from that particular author.

I cannot demand George R.R. Martin to change the direction of A Song of Fire and Ice for how I think it should go. That would be plain bonkers.

Readers have the right to read what they want to read.

If I don’t like the content of Martin’s books, but I still want to read a high fantasy novel, there’s nothing stopping me from picking up The Lord of the Rings instead.

It is unreasonable to ask creators to change their current creations to suit the whims of their audience. Do creators listen to the audience? Yes and sometimes they change their creations based on the audiences’ feedback. This isn’t always the case and it is not the standard since people have free will to do whatever they want.

That’s why there’s a free market in entertainment.

It’s literally “Don’t like? Don’t read.”

No one is compelling you to read or to continue reading a story that you don’t like. Similarly, you cannot compel a content creator to create something that they don’t like. Each side can do as they wish and then leave the rest.

This is an inaccurate statement.

CoG is not newspaper that has limited space to publish stories within its pages. Nor is it a fiction journal that has to decide which stories do or do not make the cut for their annual publication. The products CoG churns out are electronic and therefore do not have those limitations.

It is not a pie.

Publishing products that cater to minority demographics are not taking pieces of said pie away from the majority demographic.

Can’t say the same thing about the wave of nay-sayers whenever this happens though. Ah well. Maybe in the future.

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I find this forums views hypocritical in a way. There was another topic on this forum about including POC; many people came out to say how it wouldn’t fit the setting and the authors felt they couldn’t do it correctly. So, what’s the difference between this and that?

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I agree with most of what’s being said in here, especially “Don’t like? Don’t read.” Case in point: I’m gay and trans—I’m not really interested in reading a story that makes me play as a straight woman. I may if I think it sounds fun, though. With CoG and now Heart’s Choice, the great thing is that I don’t have to read (or pay for) any content I don’t personally want to see. And that being said, while I may not be buying f-genderlocked stories, I’m still rejoicing the fact that we are getting stories catered towards women (especially LGBTQ women), enbies, and mlm—and we’re getting them literally right out the gate. That never happens!

Eventually, maybe, someone will pitch a m/f story, but until then, there are still plenty of non-genderlocked games to play as a straight man (dare I say literally all of them?). Also, it’s important to remember that there’s still straight male options in some of the upcoming releases. I don’t think anyone needs to panic, yet, or ever. :slight_smile:

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What exactly do you find hypocritical and why?

I don’t think the concern around keeping CoG products catered to minorities is stemming from the authors fearing they “can’t do it correctly” (aka portraying PoC in a non-offensive/stereotypical manner).

The concern is similar to that of, going back to the business example, Barnes and Noble serving bakery products and coffee as an aside to mainly acting as a bookstore. Obviously, Barnes and Noble doesn’t want to turn into a bakery business, but they offer these food related goods because it attracts and entices customers to stay longer.

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@AChubbyBlackCat A lot of people said that the option of race or skin color shouldn’t be added because it doesn’t affect the gameplay. While here, some of those same people think that choice of gender should be added even if it adds nothing. I agree with this sentiment, but I find it hypocritical to confine this way of thinking only to gender. Even if choice of gender only affects pronouns or choice of skin color only shows up on the stat screen I think we should keep the same energy relating to all matters of personal identification and not show bias.

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Ah. Now I see what you’re saying.

I can’t speak for the individuals who argue that ethnicity shouldn’t be added because it doesn’t affect gameplay, but I think the reason why they are vocal about including gender choice is because it’s almost intrinsically tied with romance.

Which again, is a big selling point in just about any entertainment medium.

In particular, people are protective of ensuring choices, especially in relation to gender, because it’s more closely associated with romance options.

I’ve never actually seen a game where ethnicity is tied to romance options except by the loosest definition. Tin Star is the only one that comes to mind, specifically where Carrie is particularly attracted to your MC if they’re of First Nation descent.

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I’m sorry to say that, though we had a trans/trans story greenlit, it ended up being abandoned by the author. I hope we get another one soon, but no one has pitched another since.

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You’re making a comparison of content value versus gameplay value. Choicescript is entirely text-based. The reason for wanting gender customization is because of pronouns, which can be represented and fully-utilized through text, allowing someone to play as themselves without getting misgendered. That adds gameplay value even if it doesn’t add content value (most games are written so that gender isn’t an issue in the story - no content value; but letting players roleplay as themselves makes playing the game more fun - gameplay value).

Race, on the other hand, is 99% a visual aspect, and this is a text-based medium. Unless the story is specifically focused on race, there’s no point in offering an option if it’s just cosmetic, especially if it’s never referred to ever again (how many times can you mention someone’s race over text in a game where race plays little importance before it becomes obnoxious/obsessively weird?). Unless race is integral to the story, a choice to choose your race adds neither gameplay value nor content value. Plus, it’s easier to imagine your MC with your skin color than it is to consistently read incorrect pronouns whenever NPCs refer to you.

That’s not to say some authors won’t include it for completeness sake – and it’s valid if that’s why they include it. But given the medium, race isn’t as important of a customization feature here because it doesn’t add anything other than a small immersive layer in stories where race is not a central focus.

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I’m just picking a word from your post not necessarily arguing against you.

While I’m white so I’m not sure if I should even talk about this, but I think if gender choice is and option then why not add a race choice to the customization options? I think of it like this: If I appreciate to be able to choose “female” for my MCs gender even if it doesn’t make much changes to the game then why wouldn’t an african-american or an asian person appreciate to pick their own ethnicity? Hmm, maybe the gender choice isn’t the best to compare it too, but I like to be able to pick “white” when a race choice is offered, even tho that’s practically default when it comes to games or media representation.
Also idk if the majority of the people arguing against it are part of the minority or once again the already overrepresented people argue against giving any meaningful representation to anyone else.

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If that’s the case why do so many CS games have meaningless cosmetic choices then? Because they matter to people. Adding this option does not do any harm to the games and serves to make them more inclusive.

How many times is your eye color, hair color/type, style, and clothes referenced? Very few times compared to your personal pronouns. But these somehow make the cut. What is one more. Race is just as important to your identity as gender.

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The debate surrounding inclusion of race in CoG and HG titles should probably be in its own thread. This thread is supposed to be about gender-locked games.

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Everyone, please remember to stay on-topic as well as civilized to each other. Every time this issue comes up in the forums, things have gotten either heated or wildly derailed, which is why pretty much every topic before this one about gender-locks and gender-locked games has been eventually closed.

This is obviously a fraught topic, and there is no need to further pull in issues of race or religion to a thread about “pre-determined gender protagonists.” This also should not be a catch-all topic about “bias”, “perceived hypocrisy,” and especially not “fairness” vis-a-vis comparing representation of minority groups to be “tipping the balance” too far one way or murdering people.

As has been said above, do not unleash the mods on this thread.

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