Choice of Rebels: Stormwright (XoR2 WIP)

@Havenstone with all the recent conversation I’ve become increasingly interested in playing “tall” and focusing on stabilizing a revolutionary state in our corner of the continent. To that end, how viable would you imagine something (roughly) like this:


could be? The Wiendish border is very approximate, considering our lack of knowledge, but with my MC’s cosmopolitan mindset I find the idea of expanding the Wiendish/Shayardene coalition we build in the Whendward into a proper state encompassing western Shayard and southern Wiendrj to be quite appealing. Such a state feels more practically administratable without a massive theurgic imperial system, and is well situated in terms of natural resources. I’m curious how this sort of thing aligns with your vision, as much of it as you have so far.

Possible more ambitious version, depending how things go:

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Neither; I’m suggesting it’s a very valid choice to pick neither.

Like, this is what doesn’t add up for me here. If the goal of industrialization is to preferably bring industry to Shayard and also the region around the capital, but only be “not opposed” to industrialization in the parts of Erezza that are neither Avezia nor a warzone, which includes what’s currently the 5th largest city in the Hegemony, that sounds an awful lot like extracting resources from most of Erezza for the imperial core to reap the bulk of the benefits. And that’s ignoring the optics of Avezia being a former Shayardene territory, a prized desire of Shayardene irredentism, and in this scenario ruled by a Shayardene.

I would just consider offering more to the people who actually live in those places with such prized mineral resources.

I, uh, did not necessarily expect the Congo to be cited as an example where extraction was relatively easy and straightforward.


Anyway, on some lighter notes

I’m inclined to agree in principle, but ultimately the world created by the Karagond Conquest is cruel enough that it ought to be uprooted and utterly broken, I think. To steal from @apple because she puts it will, a radically emancipationist agenda. And it might be easier to draw on cultural memories from before Hera than trying to create new institutions out of what’s more or less necessity.

It’s a very selective, arguably revisionist approach, admittedly. My main rebel, for example, would probably ignore the Laconnier interpretation of history altogether. But there’s good to be salvaged, I think.

That said, I very much agree that we know far too little to be able to make definitive judgements about the efficacy of various policies; instead, proposition and opposition get to live comfortably in the realms of speculation and ideology. Things should ultimately be the consequences of our choices, more so than making choices to reach that one desires outcome.

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I read that a lot of Greeks still callled themselves Roman until the late 19th-early 20th century.

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I have some judicial questions and suggestions.

First, how about allowing us to introduce something closer to the police as we know them, like Bow Street Runners?

What exactly will a jury trial look like?

Also, even if it is impossible to attend all trials, is it possible to establish a system of independent prosecutors and lawyers?

To what extent are literacy and higher education achievable in relation to them?

Also, what kind of legal code can be enacted?

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Yeah, but one of the main driving factors of my MC is that I feel that her trajectory as a person will ultimately lead her to seeking Hegemony herself. She sees herself as a subject of the wider Hegemony and will most likely believe the best way to secure the peace is through her own strength.

I’m just not sure what her full conclusions will be by then. But, I don’t see her ever accepting the deaths of millions through a forced famine to decouple as a valid strategy. There’s just too much that’s unknown for her and myself to rule things out or to limit myself.

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Hmm interesting. What would that kind of indirect democracy look like, including the electoral system and the scope of voting rights?

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If you want a small and backwards state, certainly. Empire building has never been the most humanitarian of undertakings.

The goal is to spread industry around and build new ones up, while also removing it from Karagon under a Morgenthau esque plan to where it is most viable, if that includes Soretto it includes Soretto, if not then not. The capital region is an exception to that as my mc will always want some industry there regardless even if the site turns out to be slightly sub-optimal. And when they are built much of the new roads would tend to lead to Avezia, instead of Aekos, so there is that. As in a lot of empires or even just countries the capital region tends to get an infrastructure advantage, if not at the outset then over time.

Thus the exceptions, where my mc would oppose industrialization would be rump, Karagon and certain risky border areas both on the Xaos and Halassur sides as the risks would very likely outweigh the benefits. The only region my mc actually intends to restrain development and keep it as backwards as our home in the Rim is right now would be the rump Karagon.

We’ll presumably learn later on which sites would be good, apart from the Wiendish lowlands with their abundance of water power to commit to industrializing first. Again, if that includes Soretto and the region surrounding it industry will be priority to develop there, if not then not.

It’s me I want a small and backwards state (we will all be furries and everyone will be happy :relieved:).

In all seriousness, my MC is at the stage where they prioritize ideological goals over developmentalist ones, and would favor a smaller state where those can be pursued to completion over a larger imperial structure that might facilitate a more “developed” or industrial society.

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Up until the early 19th century, all Greeks called themselves Romans. Not only were they part of the Ottoman Rūm millet (Roman nation, a kind of religious based self-governance group) but they were the leading element of it. The Ecumenical Patriarch was always a Greek and the Phanariotes (the remnants of Byzantine nobility in Constantinople) held advantageous posts in Ottoman governance, traditionally the posts of the de facto Foreign Minister (Dragoman of the Porte) and the Vice Admiral of the Ottoman Navy (Dragoman of the Fleet). Of course their conception of Roman (a person who speaks Greek and is Orthodox) is very different from what passes as Roman in the West but as far as these people were concerned, Rome lived and its Empire had merely passed to another custodian.

The change towards the term Hellene occurs during the War of Independence, with Hellene being identified with those fighting for an independent Greek state (even if funnily enough that state is most commonly called Rhomania in their own writings, not Hellas!) and ‘Roman’ being associated with slavish attitudes and the kind of meekness the revolutionary army was trying to throw aside. The term survived until the 20th century with Anatolian Greeks as a means of self-identification but with their expulsion and subsequent settling in Greece the term finally died out in common public use.

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Well spoken, until one of the larger, imperial states waltzes over you anyways. Worst is if that state is a reborn Hegemony or Halassur. My mc wants as big a state as he can get to be able to stand opposed to those guys on an even footing.

Even if they let you in relative peace you’d have to pay them tribute and likely agree to onerous demands such as letting their merchants and dignitaries bring their slaves into your territory, even if you have outlawed it, maybe they’ll even try to impose your cooperation with something like a fugitive slave act.

I would like to ask again, to what extent can we achieve industrialization?

That would have been an inconvenient name to pick.

In this vein, I was wondering if it would be possible for a cosmo-MC to claim the title of Thaumatarch for themselves, or if it is too tainted already. When writing to Mehmed II in 1466, the philosopher George of Trebizond assures him that he is the rightful Roman Emperor ‘for the Emperor is he who rightfully holds the seat of the Empire’ and given his conquest of Constantinople, it was evident that God thus favoured him so. An MC who conquers Aekos might be the Angels-ordained rightful Thaumatarch…

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I would like to ask you some questions about the political system in this game world.

First of all, how does the printing press in this game world work and what are its capabilities?

Also, is it possible to enact something like a Bill of Rights? If a bill of rights could be enacted, what rights could it guarantee?

The dynamics in Wiendrj will become clearer as we get into Game 3, but fragmentation is overwhelmingly likely there when the Hegemonic boot is removed. So yes, a cosmopolitan Rim-and-Southriding state could potentially draw in some of the southern Wiendish clans.

Moving out of the southern highlands (the Zdzesin to Szeric arc) to fully incorporate the lowlands around Alsztyn and Stezyc could be logistically tricky, though. Those are some of Wiendrj’s most valuable and populous territories, but dependent on grain imports up the river. Even if the population was reduced to what the local farmland can support, they’re still much more easily accessed from the east than reinforced from the south, so you’d be vulnerable to invasion by whomever holds the Shayard Reach.

Your second map, where you hold much of the Westriding and some of the western Reach, would solve that problem…but in that scenario, it would be pretty hard to defend your eastern flank within Shayard. An ever-shifting border somewhere between the Rivers Eddern and Fyrne would I think be the most likely outcome. Your attention and military strength would need to be focused there, so if any of the Wiendish districts wanted to break away, you’d not be able to do a lot to keep them in your realm.

I don’t think that’s going to happen in the wake of an imperial collapse, especially one where the pre-collapse “police” had been so broadly corrupt and extractive. I’ve unfortunately seen close-up how hard it is to reform a force like that under circumstances of ongoing civil strife (even in the present day when we have lots of successful models we can consciously work towards). Getting your Hegemonic police force to the point where it can do the “keeping public order” part is a Herculean enough task.

You could decree that for certain crimes, guilt can only be established by a jury of peers, not by a judge. The local magistrate (whatever form that takes post-Hegemony) would then be responsible to convene ten people deemed to be peers of the accused; in the absence of an effective state investigative arm, the juries would be “self-informing, in that individuals were chosen as jurors because they either knew the parties and the facts, or they had the duty to discover them.”

Independent from the state you’re establishing? Pretty tough, I’d say. You can reorient the system away from presumption of guilt and confession-extraction (an orientation that many law enforcement systems have kept until shockingly recently), toward presumption of innocence, but given the dearth of potential lawyers I mentioned before, I think your system isn’t going to have enough legal specialists to staff both the state system and a hypothetical independent bar big enough to be meaningful. Maybe if you end up governing a micro-state, like Mara’s Vatican Switzerland?

In relation to lawyers? You can found institutions to teach your new deNapoleonic Code, but with everything else going on in the imperial collapse and war, I don’t think you should expect those to be high-output for a while yet.

You can invest in various schemes to promote mass literacy, and we’ll see how effective those can be. As we see in India’s case or China’s, even with all the technologies of mass literacy operating in a modern state, it can take more than a generation to get to 50% from a similarly low baseline. In the post-Hegemonic context, progress will surely be slower than that.

You will be able to go with the existing religious code, reinterpreted to various degrees; to institute a new code based on Angelic revelation; or to try to roll out a post-revolutionary code unrelated to the Angels. There’s no “common law” in the Hegemony other than the records of priestly outworking of the canon through the centuries, so any secular law code you implement will be statutory/civil.

Pretty basic, I think, and pretty vulnerable to capture by local elites. You could try to institute a secret ballot (with the challenge of getting recognizable symbols for each candidate so the illiterate can take part) or go for choice by public voice vote. Depending on the size of your realm and overall anarchy levels, you might be able to get central representatives out to witness a decent sample of the moots that choose the local leadership to make sure the choice is being made fairly.

More likely, given the limits on central admin capacity, you’d simply be decreeing that every community/urban neighborhood of a certain size has the right to choose its own leadership through the choice of a majority of all recognized adult residents, and that this needs to be documented and your central government informed. You could regardless expect to have a huge number of cases where local elites complain that their rivals rigged the choice.

Because of the logistical limitations on vote collection and counting, if you wanted to have representation in your district, provincial and/or central lawmaking bodies, I think you’d need to have those representatives chosen by a body of local representatives from among their number. I don’t think any post-Hegemonic state is going to be anywhere close to the point where it could hold credible realm-wide elections, or really elections that go beyond (max) a few hundred participants at a time.

The Hegemony has achieved early industrialization, all based on blood magic – high farm yields, large scale production of iron and textiles, a continent-wide canal/riverine transport system. As with the Roman collapse, a lot of that will be put at severe risk simply by the breakup of a single political system into competing blocks, even if the rebellions that bring it down aren’t also trying to reduce the use of blood.

Spinning jennies have been invented, so industrial-scale textile production should still be possible with the mills adapted to Whendish waterpower. But the Hegemony’s iron/steel production methods have relied on Theurgic mass production of trees and charcoal; use of mineral coal is a curiosity, done nowhere at scale. (Though as Erjan will tell us in a Ch 3 aside, the Magi of Halassur have been experimenting with spending less of their energy on charcoal and more on “anthractic earths,” which are present in some arid areas of the Empire in much greater quantity than trees). The trade networks that underpin industrialization would half-collapse if canal maintenance and river channel dredging had to be done by manual labor, or barges and boats could only travel at the speed of horse or the mercy of natural wind. (Grand Shayard sits almost perfectly in the middle of the world’s doldrums.)

I mean, it’s totally tainted, but so is “Goete” and you can still pick that. :slight_smile:

It’s a Gutenberg-style movable type press, not a cylindrical one (that tech won’t be invented in the game time), with priests able to operate it either manually (with the Britannica-mentioned rate of 250 sheets per hour) or in the rare cases where faster production is needed, with a Theurge exerting pressure on the plate.

The gameworld has the concept of the “rights of nobility,” and of special “rights and liberties” granted to particular groups; when those are disrespected, the member of the group can appeal to the local authority to enjoin the respect of their rights. (Usually, as in the early modernity of our world, this happens in property disputes.) The idea of universal rights and liberties that apply to all humans isn’t (I think) so far over the intellectual horizon that a MC/their friends couldn’t come up with it and try to encode it. So yes, you will be able to try to enact universal rights into law. We’ll see which rights end up being thinkable, and anything resembling enforceable.

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I know it’s a rough summary, but is it like America before the enactment of the 17th Amendment, especially from its founding to the Civil War?

After all, to what extent is it possible to liberalize and improve the capabilities of the police?

Also, what are the selection criteria and summons procedures for "peers”jurors?

What will be the legal training and certification system? I think a lot depends on that.

A plausible number to suggest based on actual early modern data would be around 30%.

(However, of course, this is just one proposal, so I don’t think it’s necessary to be too bound by these numbers.)

That is incredibly significant! How were they milling grain pre-Hegemony? Was it all water and animal power?

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Yep! Much of the world mills their grain that way. :slight_smile: Shayard didn’t become a naval power until it used cavalry to conquer the Coast and Aveche, and never matched the Erezziano city-states’ experience and power at sea even then.

America benefited from centuries of British parliamentary experience, and in many cases further experience of participatory institutions in the colonies, that are pretty much entirely absent from the Hegemony. (The memory of the Nyrnakan Republic offers the closest thing on the MC’s continent to democracy at scale, and it wasn’t a very big scale.) So no, I think the feel will be very different.

Very little. I mean, it’s not particularly hard to improve on the Alastors, and that will definitely be possible; but the kind of improvements I think you have in mind go beyond what’s possible in a context that has no memory of liberal institutions of any kind, especially regarding public order and safety.

That’s not going to be something you’ll have the power to standardize across a state of any significant scale. You can choose how class-conscious the definition of “peers” is meant to be (do nobles get judged only by nobles? by free folk? by helots?), but I suspect the detail beyond that is going to be largely worked out on the ground.

You can set up a lawyers’ guild and have them agree on qualifications to be recognized before your courts… but as with any guild setup, that’s going to end up (further) reducing the total number of people who qualify to practice.

“Early modern” looked very different in a number of extremely hierarchical societies, which didn’t get particularly close to 30% literacy until the 20th century, than it did in fragmented and individualizing Europe.

To have a chance at doubling the number of literate people in the Hegemony in your lifetime, you should try to protect the institutions that got literacy up from 5% to 15% over the past couple of centuries – i.e. the Ecclesiasts and Diakons. If they take a major institutional hit during the dissolution of the theocracy they’ve supported – which is of course the likely option – it will greatly magnify the challenge in promoting literacy. (Something @idonotlikeusernames’s radical MC has recognized for years; whatever state capacity he manages to foster, he’s ready to spend a lot of it on a new secular education system, rather than other goals.)

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Yep,

If there is any bias in what is taught, along with math and literacy, it should not be towards the Xthonic religion.

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