Ah yes. And Ciels could confirm that they’re invisible and as far as s/he’s seen have no obvious gaps (in terms of the impact).
So, hypothetically, could a rebel group build its safehaven(s) in xaos-lands while caching their weapons and other non-ward permeable materiel inside the Empire?
Hypothetically. 
New page, new link to the game and the draft world map.
I’m definitely hooked to this game. The plot, the details and the blood and gore is simply delicious for my apetite 
"You’ll have the option to push for various forms of government. Formal voting systems probably won’t be among them; if Karagon ever had a classical democratic period, it’s long since wiped out any memory of it. But there will be more participatory options than the old monarchy – and of course there will be more authoritarian ones too. "
I think that for my main character, being a helot a return to the old monarchy is hardly a viable option. Assuming we win the rebellion going in formal personal status from slave to serf seems a bit meagre of a reward for all the effort as well as in insult to all those who have fought and died for the rebellion (who considering the empire’s demographics are likely to be mostly helots as well).
Why not a republic?
If the highly charismatic can form their own religion why not have those of a more intellectual persuasion be able to work out and (try to) implement their own system of governance?
You could always name your original group and inner circle as the new royalty and force your enemies to be the helots, once you establish your new world order. Reeducation camps sounds nice for those with high charisma.
@Pepper trouble with that is that the people most suited to leading a rebellion are rarely the most suited to rebuilding afterwards and I’d like to think that a my character is savvy enough to be aware of that particular pitfall. At the same time he wouldn’t want to just hand over all that the rebellion has won to some old nobles who used to run a system that was only slightly better in the end. In the end I’d like to be able to strive for something that is not just a return to something approaching the old status quo, regardless of who is the new ruling dynasty.
Which brings me to another problem with royalty as we know it, the pressure to create heirs. Since under the old system helots were required to keep their numbers high I can imagine my character, in addition to just prefering men, as a former helot deriving some satisfaction to be relieved of that burden if the rebellion is ultimately succesful and thus having no great desire to father any children. While some Roman Emperors have historically had some measure of succes with naming persons who were not their biological children as their heirs ultimately a monarchial class based system I think would not satisfy my character.
Also if forming our own religion is out for the budding theurges I think I’d eventually like to invite as many priests from as many different religions as I can possibly get into my realm (providing those religions are at least marginally less barbaric than the prevailing one) and simply overwhelm the populace with choice and religious freedom. Anything to draw support away from Xthonos.
@idonotlikeusernames Create a own religion is for charismatic characters lol, not for theurges they are already inmensely overpowered lol dont stole the only advantage i get being charismatic. X( Theurges stolen other people perks since the begining
@idnlun, don’t worry, you won’t be forced to choose a monarchy, let alone a hereditary one or serfdom. When I said there would be more participatory options, I had moots and things in mind – the sorts of informal democracy that existed in many premodern cultures, if not the more formal systems that evolved from Athens and Rome. Good point that a high-intellect character might innovate a more formal republican system. We’ll see whether that works as the games progress.
Regardless of intellect or charisma, you can get exposure to the religions of the Abhumans and Halassur… and you’ll have to make your own judgment as to whether they’re worth inviting into the Empire.
@PotionsMaster and @mmmcake (belatedly): thanks for the encouraging words!
Aren’t there also the Nereish skeptics (if my character had to embrace a religion that would probably be it although I’d like to avoid naming any formal state religion if I can) and the old gods of some of the other provinces whose worship might be revived if allowed to?
At this point though, if you’re an open theurge, it seems that almost any religion other then Xthonos would be preferably since its priests quite literally seem to want my character’s blood.
@Havenstone you mentioned that the extremely charismatic character would be akin to Gandhi by the end of the last game. I also noted the option to “not steal from anyone” in chapter 2. Is a non-violent revolution even possible in a Gandhi-esq manner? It seems like the Thaumatarch would be all too pleased to have you and your supporters march into a Harrower singing “We shall overcome.”
@cascat07, the nonviolent or minimally violent revolution is a Hard Mode. It will require an approach more suited to the context than marching and singing. It will probably only work for a high CHA character. It will involve high casualties. But yes, it will be possible to transform the empire without violence - or more accurately, by using the empire’s own violence against it (which is what Gandhi and King achieved, in very different contexts).
I’ve also described the max charisma character as Buddha (or pick your religious founder of choice), and founding a devoted mass movement of one kind or another is a must for the nonviolent route.
Many Gandhian tactics were appropriate only for an empire with a degree of conscience; his letter to the Jews under Hitler is rightly considered a failure to appreciate the full horror of their context. In writing this hard mode, I’ll be trying to imagine a path that does work even against a thoroughly depraved empire. We’ll see if it works.
@idnlun, yes, reviving dead religions and encouraging skepticism will also be options. But don’t entirely write off the Xthonics, just because it’s tough to get them on side. As Ecclesiast Olynna suggests, the centrality of compassion to the creed may be an Achilles heel.
@Havenstone i have a maximize charisma character, but i dont want to be a hippie , nor budda. There are millions of examples about charismatic people not so heavenly: Hitler ,Stalin ,Pol Pot Mao … Genghis Khan Atila… Juilius Caesar … heck 99% of charismatic leaders are all less saints. I greatly fear this game considers charisma like saintity… And create a gandhi revolution it´s not part of my plans, this empire is not England lol, Gandhi would end in a butcher house lol. I just want to a bloodshed but not against nobles or merchants nope , i want destroy all helots resistance now im using them but i want kill all their leaders once and for all, becoming the supreme queen and start a new monarchy.
"But don’t entirely write off the Xthonics, just because it’s tough to get them on side. As Ecclesiast Olynna suggests, the centrality of compassion to the creed may be an Achilles heel. "
When it comes to organized religion I find that forgiveness is very seldom free. From where I stand the kinder, gentler heresy seems to be heavily tied to the old order of Shayard. I fear that in return for dropping their blood feud against my character even the rebel priests would require a sacrifice that would not be in line with the goals of my rebellion such as a matrilineal marriage to some Laconnier girl that would almost certainly lead to a revival of the old monarchy and serfdom. Besides on a more personal level “prince-consort” would just be a fancy way of saying serf to my character.
In fact, if real, I predict that the Laconnier conspiracy is going to be one of the most serious threats to the success of my rebellion, second only to the empire itself.
I really hope you’ll allow us to attempt to innovate a more formal republican system because after reading up on the history of Things it would seem that they have two fatal flaws when it comes to the goals of my rebellion.
- First being a mostly clan based system of governance historically they would all but assure the realm fragments in practice, if not in theory, leaving at best a central government with only nominal powers, which is far from ideal when ones goal is to establish a modernizing republic based on education and commerce.
- If they are anything like the historical ones from our world it would mean they are only open to persons of some means, meaning nobles and merchants and would therefore still leave the former helots, including my character, out in the cold.
@Mara I don’t think being highly charismatic will prevent you from pursuing a more violent tactics of rebellion just that having high charisma is the pre-requisite for a minimum violence approach just like high intelligence is the pre-requisite for using theurgy.
Whent it comes to the Laconniers I have a minor bug to report when Breden is female the first sentence of this paragraph still uses “he”.
“Breden told you all about the Laconnier Order, along with other stories of the old monarchy that he overheard from his former masters in the east when they were drunk and seditious. “They said there were no helots in Shayard before the Karagonds came. The kings and queens of old fed the realm and held it together without Theurgy – without any need for Harrowing!” Her eyes were bright and distant.”
Mara, I have good news and bad news. The good news is that charisma will not equate to compassion; a vengeance cult/cult of personality (like those started by the 20th century leaders you mention) will be an equally viable option.
The bad news is that charisma’s real benefits come at scale - mass movements, of a religious or quasi-religious nature - so being a charisma-maxed character will likely involve engaging with the unwashed helot masses as a path to victory. You don’t have to like them, but you’ll have to fake it well enough to inspire their fervent belief.
If you forgo that path and just play charisma for its effect on small groups, like the noble elite or guild masters, you’ll need to rely much more heavily on your team, with deputies who can win the war for you. And woe betide you if the wrong one betrays you.
idnlun, there’s no necessary connection between the Shayardene heresy and royalism. That said, of course it’s not all peaches and cream, either. No religious or ethical system of values survives the encounter with reality unscathed, as witness the example of our world’s compassion-creeds (secular and otherwise).
You’re right that the Laconniers are likely to oppose your particular vision for the realm.
The tradeoff between fragmentation and participation is not going to entirely go away, I’m afraid; it took a lot more experiments in democracy than the gameworld has had before we Earthlings figured out how to make a republic work at scale. Even geniuses are limited in how much political innovation they can create from scratch.
Even today, with all our knowledge and experience, building a strong state in a post-conflict environment is hard to combine with making it participatory. (I’ll be flying out of Kabul in 12 hours, inshallah; my years in Afghanistan are a significant influence on Choice of Rebels).
But your points are well taken. Moots were the local equivalent of things, btw, and didn’t just involve elites. You definitely won’t be required to leave former helots out in the cold. And thanks for the pronounspotting.
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@Havenstone Great im a perfect liar i could kiss and hug ugly helots babies to reach power … When i reach power though my felows would have tragedy accidents and being buried like poisoned heroes.
Oh Mara. 
Firstly, I’d just like to congratulate you on what is shaping up to be not only an incredibly good game, but also an exceptionally well-crafted piece of art. I’m content in saying it knocks the spots off every official “Choice of…” game I’ve hitherto played and stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the fantastic Sabres of Infinity. You’re clearly talented and erudite and, as a student of history and politics, I’m very much looking forward to playing the finished product!
I was wondering if I might be so bold as to offer a couple of general suggestions?
Goodness, @Red_Ratatosk: yes please. I mean, the obvious purpose of the forum thread is to flatter me and boost my ego… but let’s at least keep up pretenses that it’s about taking suggestions to improve the game!
Hehehehe