Checkpoints?

jl_ · 2014-01-09T11:12:09.000Z

@Harian Just personal opinion here. I’d suggest doing away with checkpoints altogether and just making it a little bit clearer that the PC might die in the situation if they continue on this road. That way, they’ve made an informed decision as to whether they want to proceed. If they don’t die, it looks epic and possibly established a new enemy. If they do die, well, as long as they go down in a blaze of flaming glory, I don’t see the problem.

Samuel_H_Young · 2014-01-09T11:23:01.000Z

@_jl
In Trial of the Demon Hunter, there are many situations in which you are required to fight; so, there are many situations in which you have the probability of dying. Were I not to include a checkpoint system, I’m sure I’d get a lot of reviews saying “UGH IT’S SO ANNOYING THAT THERE ISN’T A CHECKPOINT SYSTEM BECAUSE I KEEP DYING AND I HAVE TO RESTART!!! I GIVE IT A 1!”

Havenstone · 2014-01-09T11:42:29.000Z

One of the things I’ve added to Rebels is a checkpoint system, with checkpoints before and after Ch 2. It’s not because people die but because it makes it easier to replay the chapter with the most branches without having to start all over again. Halian, I’ll send you a link to the code when it’s ready to go.

jl_ · 2014-01-09T11:49:59.000Z

@Samuel_H_Young True and it does depend on the game. For me, I look at it like this. The player character and their posse is to some extent special; more so than the other people you encounter. The reason being, for me, is that it is important that someone feels invested in their character. That doesn’t mean things won’t be difficult however.

So with that in mind, if a game were to not have a checkpoint, the combat could be very dramatic and at times very difficult. It may be life-threatening but in all cases, perhaps the player has an opportunity to back away or end the fight by doing something cool or avoid the fight altogether. Again, this is dependent on the game but I think there should be the option to resolve any given situation in a number of ways.

Of course, having a reasoned discussion with a blood-thirsty goblin - as in your case - is going to be difficult but perhaps in some situations, a player could use stealth, for example? I should say though, I don’t think removing checkpoints is appropriate for any and all games but where possible, if you can remove that safety net and still make it seem tense and exciting for the player, I would go for it.

@Havenstone For replayability, I can see the value of a checkpoint system. Again, I do have some personal disagreements with it but they are only personal feelings and I can completely understand why people would want checkpoints in their system for whatever reason.

Samuel_H_Young · 2014-01-09T12:02:23.000Z

@_jl
I agree! There are cases in Trial of the Demon Hunter where you can avoid combat altogether by using stealth. However, because of the plot, you aren’t able to avoid it by talking the aggressor(s) out of it.

I personally don’t like checkpoints that much, but I’ve seen a lot of readers give (for example) Sabres of Infinity bad reviews because of the initial lack of a checkpoint system. So, I implemented one to stop that from happening.

jl_ · 2014-01-09T12:12:20.000Z

@Samuel_H_Young Yes, I was playing through a bit of it earlier today (unfortunately I’m not going to be free to play anything properly for a week or so) and noticed you definitely had these options present. Your method reminds me (and I’m not sure entirely as I haven’t had the chance to play all the way through) of the various Hitman/Thief games.

Within them, if you’re unfamiliar, the objective was definitely to kill or steal but there was ‘more than one way to skin a cat’. If you want a more contemporary example, take a look at Dishnoured too. The reason I’m against checkpoints - and perhaps you agree with this - is because they remove agency from the player in some respects. So say if I had suffered some grievous harm in my most recent encounter, I would like to make the choice to escape the next encounter but also in addition, to face great penalty if I made the choice to still go ahead all guns blazing anyway.

Egoraptor makes this point really well on his “Sequelitis” series, especially the <a href=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM>Megaman video. If you get a chance, take a look at the rest of the series. Although some of his points are (deliberately?) silly, some of them are actually really good insight into game design.

fantom · 2014-01-09T12:17:41.000Z

What about implementing an easy and hard mode? Easy mode would have the checkpoint system, and hard mode would not.

jl_ · 2014-01-09T12:20:51.000Z

@fantom That would definitely circumvent some of the issues we’re discussing here. That’s a good idea. I’m not sure what it would involve coding wise but I don’t think it would be overly complex.

Samuel_H_Young · 2014-01-09T12:21:18.000Z

@_jl
You were playing TotDH ? I wasn’t aware I had any working links up, still.

I also give options for your goal to be to redeem the aggressors.

I agree with you on that. Checkpoint systems are somewhat like back buttons, which take away suspense.

I’ll take a look when I get the chance.

fantom · 2014-01-09T12:23:03.000Z

@_jl My guess would be a true/false check at the checkpoints.

jl_ · 2014-01-09T12:26:54.000Z

@Samuel_H_Young Yes although I imagine it could be an old link or old files. I was playing from the very first link in the OP I believe.

Ah that’s really interesting. I imagine it’s quite difficult to write and code for two different paradigm shifts though.

This is exactly my feeling on the matter. I appreciate the necessity to go back certain times, perhaps for replayability purposes? In the main though, I feel it really makes the interaction encroach on the story, rather than work alongside it.

It’s quite funny if you do get the chance!

@fantom Yes. Probably right at the beginning, you’d specify whether you want easy mode on or off, and then use that boolean value with an if statement for each checkpoint.

Samuel_H_Young · 2014-01-09T12:43:52.000Z

@_jl
Yeah it must have been. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised if you read the finished work, because the initial demo is about a tenth of the quality as the soon-to-be-published version is:P

It’s mainly to fit for different personality types. I give the reader an option of the main reason why they’re a demon hunter/huntress. Is it because
1.) You hate evil beings and want to eradicate them
2.) You enjoy the gold that comes from the career
3.) You want to protect the innocent and make the world a better place.

I think the best way to get a different version of the story is for the reader to go back and play it again, instead of choosing “go back” for every choice box, and eventually picking the option that he/she deems best. That takes all the fun out of it.

@fantom and @_jl
Initially, I debated on whether or not to allow readers to choose either a hard, intermediate or easy mode, but I think it’d take the challenge out of it if the reader chose intermediate or easy. A challenging story makes the reader feel as though he/she has truly earned the desirable ending, as opposed to having it given to him/her.

Samuel_H_Young · 2014-01-09T13:18:34.000Z

@_jl
Woops! It looks like all the old links work. I need to fix that xD since it’s gonna be published, I don’t want people to be able to read it from a link.

Porter · 2014-01-09T13:20:52.000Z

I have another reason
4) its fun killing stuff

Samuel_H_Young · 2014-01-09T13:23:42.000Z

@PORT3R
I didn’t know you could kill inanimate objects xD

Harian · 2014-01-09T13:42:08.000Z

@Havenstone

Thank you

jl_ · 2014-01-09T15:13:55.000Z

@Samuel_H_Young I really do look forward to giving it a go when it it is published! If you do want to prevent people from reading the current content, perhaps you could have a placeholder instead? I think @Havenstone employs this technique in Choice of Rebels so perhaps you could ask.

As for personality types, I strongly recommend you take a look at D&D Character Alignment sheets. I wrote about it here if you’d like to take a look. They’re very useful to keep in mind, I think, when offering players options.

I’m unsure as to whether this should be done. My instinct would be to do the same too although you take the risk of having people getting annoyed they don’t have complete freedom and choice in the game. If your game works upon not having checkpoints and forcing players to make tough, binding decisions, then go for it all the way I say!

@Harian Apologies. I appear to be hijacking this thread and taking it off course somewhat. I am happy to refrain and move the discussion to another thread if you wish?

Samuel_H_Young · 2014-01-09T15:22:33.000Z

@_jl
I have no use for the links, now:P

I’ll take a look!

There are a lot of tough decisions. However, checkpoint systems only take you back if you die.

Harian · 2014-01-09T16:28:48.000Z

@_jl

I don’t really mind, in any case I’m learning more about creating good games.

Vamp12345 · 2014-01-09T22:43:14.000Z

Some of my favorite acheivements were: (have them all saved in notes)
//
You slink up to the drummer. After a brief moment, you sink your teeth into his wrist. You close your eyes as your heart spurts to life. You feel Estefania pressing her body up against yours, and within a few moments, your two hearts beat as one.

You open your eyes, and find Estefania gazing at you lustily. Breaking the seal between your lips and the drummer’s wrist, you reach for her. Your lips meet, slickened by blood. The two of you kiss passionately, hungrily, pressing against each other, trying to seize as much of the moment as possible while your two hearts gradually slow, no longer quickened by the lifeforce of the dying musician. As the kiss continues, you do your best to push the thought of the fading warmth from your mind. You claw at each other, desperate, as though by pressing yourselves close, the cold of the grave will not return.

he hunt is short. The blood is sweet. The sudden flood of blood over your lips pushes your heart into motion, and before long you are staring deeply into Jesse’s eyes. Driven by the sympathy of your heartbeats, you push yourself up and cross the line of the body that separates you, pressing your bloody lips to Jesse’s. At first he bares his fangs, a wolf defending his kill, but within a few moments you are wrapped in each others’ arms; the corpse slowly cools between you, now merely an obstruction to the press of your bodies.

I have proven myself that you can be any descriptions of any background and (if you make the same choices) still get to these points.
\\
But my favorite scene was with Jessie bellow XD
//
“That Malloy woman has been sucking at the teat of Stone for the past several decades. Obviously, she would advance his agenda in the Senate.”

“Clearly.”

“Pickering, on the other hand, is an instrument of his domina, an antiquated bitch if ever I had the pleasure of meeting one.”

“Jesse!”

“I only speak the truth,” he says with a scowl. Thankfully, Mr. Pickering is occupied with cajoling the Puritan woman at the moment. “And, believe me, Isabella Quintaña is that and more.”

“Not everyone always wants to hear the truth.”