I’m an American, but I’ve been following the referendum on Twitter. The basic arguments I’ve seen is that leaving will create higher priced goods, and that staying means you’ll be kept underneath an undemocratic government. I’m not sure how well that sums it up, I was just curious what you guys thought.
I think brexit is a stupid word.
And that’s about the sum of my thoughts on the matter. I haven’t really been following it.
I mean I’ve already decided I’m going to vote to stay.
“Undemocratic” may be a bit over-strong when it comes to placing the EU on a spectrum of government types. (Particularly from the home of the Electoral College, the nearly unamendable constitution, and Supreme Court judicial review.)
I think Brexit wouldn’t be the end of the world, but I don’t think it would do Britain many favours either. I’ll vote to remain if my ballot gets here in time.
Given that leaving is extremely likely to cripple the economy, I and most of my friends who are interested in politics are in. I feel like people who are interested in the Brexit campaign have an unrealistic vision of a future Britain; most of what I’ve heard is that they can build Britain into a great nation again, and while I’m not denying we could be, the main problem that people aim for is to stop the masses of immigration into Britain. I’m not denying that that’s a problem, but it would probably be an unbalanced tradeout.
While I really dislike David Cameron, I do think he has the potential right idea about this; establishing new trade routes outside of the EU would take way too long than is comfortable or sensible, and leaving would be an economical catastrophe to say the least.
Maybe this was a bit much, but I haven’t seen my friend whom I talk to about politics in over a week. It builds up.
Are you sure creating trade routes outside of the EU will be necessary? Many European countries export quite a lot of goods to Britain, something like 40% of German cars are sold to Britain. Sorry if I sound ignorant of the politics of the region, but the whole situation has really grabbed by attention and I’m trying to get a better grasp of it.
That’s because most, if not all of the countries that export the goods to Britain are part of the European Union; the reason Germany can sell their cars to Britain is because they’re both members of the EU, meaning that they can trade with each other freely. The current trade routes aren’t between Britain and Germany, it’s between one EU nation to another or between Germany and the EU/Britain and the EU, so if Britain leaves, this particular trade route will be discontinued and another one between the nation of Germany and the nation of Britain will have to be established. They won’t be particularly hard to establish per se, but the price of goods will rise exponentially, making it a lot harder to pay for goods, either essential or luxury.
And ignorance is fine as long as it’s not intentional; learning is great and one of my most prominent fears is finding out that I’ve been either misinformed or just plain wrong about something. Too little people are actually interested in the politics of Europe and don’t care how it affects them.
It is rather annoying when the best option for PM is still (somehow) Cameron…
Actually, now I think about it, the potential next leaders of the country are a buffoon with bad hair and worse policies, a socialist who may have some of the right ideas, but would be terrible at implementing them, and someone whose role in the current government has given them experience, but very few friends. That’s sounding worryingly familiar…
I’m voting out. I’ve never liked the EU and am of the opinion that after two world wars where our soldiers fought to stop Someone else running our country that Tony Blair signing us into the EU without consulting the people he was supposed to represent as traitorous.
The fact Britain keeps getting threats about what they will do if we vote leave makes me believe leave is the right choice.
We survived before joining the EU and we can survive after.
While I’m a far from an expert on the matter, I have kept reasonably informed on the subject and believe that should Britain leave the EU, it’ll have more detrimental effects than benefits for the British. Not to mention how the Brexit would adversely affect the other countries in the EU, Ireland being an obvious example.
My thoughts on the matter being a matter of public vote can be summed up in this article by the ever entertaining Dave Mitchell - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/29/eu-referendum-parliament-leaders-david-cameron-david-mitchell - with his quotation of Richard Dawkins particularly appropriate,
“It is an outrage that people as ignorant as me are being asked to vote. This is a complicated matter of economics, politics, history, and we live in a representative democracy not a plebiscite democracy. You could make a case for having plebiscites on certain issues – I could imagine somebody arguing for one on fox hunting, for example – but not on something as involved as the European Union. This should be a matter for parliament.”
So one of the main reasons you want to leave is pride? And we survived before the EU because everything had been established for us; we had our own trade routes and we were one of the worlds most foremost nations. I’m not saying we aren’t now, but the world has become so much more interconnected since the EU was formed; it’s gotten to the point where it would be extremely difficult to survive on our own and the EU itself is an economic superpower almost, if not completely on par with the likes of the U.S. and China. The attitude of ‘we survived before so we can survive after’ makes it sound like you think it will be simple to perform as we did before the EU, which is both absurd and narrow-minded.
I think Nocturnals position is more about sovereignty than pride. The way I understand the European commission is that citizens within Europe don’t elect their executive representatives. As an American, I would be appalled at sacrificing sovereignty for economic stability. But I could be a little off about the way the commission works.
Britain fought two world wars, and countless wars prior, to stop Europe from being controlled by single nations. This was to keep our influence in Europe. Influence we lose by leaving the EU. (One could argue that the EU is a single body controlling Europe, but while we are part of it, we have some say in how it is run. Less than we would like, admittedly, but far more than the average member state.) This will also weaken the EU, and the only person who would benefit from this is currently eyeing Ukraine and licking his lips.
Why would someone giving me an ultimatum like do what I want or I’ll punish you make me want to listen to them? The big problem I have is a lot of opinions are scare-mongering. Remain says if we leave this will happen and we’ll be crippled while leave say if we stay that will happen and we’ll be crippled. I’ve yet to see 100% unbiased report of the facts. I think joining the EU without consulting the people you represent was wrong. This referendum should have been done in the beginning. If the majority vote remain then that’s what the majority of people want. If the majority vote leave again that is what the majority of people want.
As it happens, I completely agree with both you and @person59; this whole thing is nothing more than a complete shitstorm. The entire world has gone about it the complete wrong way and made the wrong decision at almost every turn. Almost the entire campaign for both sides has been ‘don’t do what we say and you’re damning us all’ but nothing had to be damned in the first place.
The politics of the world went to shit a long, long time ago, I understand that. I literally despise what the world has come to. And while I very frequently wish that humanity hadn’t screwed up the world so badly, wishing won’t do anything; we have to make the best of what we’ve got. Granted we’re essentially choosing between a terrible option and another terrible option, but I don’t want the world to get any worse than it is. It would be naive of me to think that it never will get any worse, but I just think that remaining in the EU at this time grants us at least a tiny bit of stability in the frequent turbulence we’re undergoing, and I also think that leaving would be taking a massive leap of faith that at this moment, we as a nation are just not prepared for it.
I think it would be perfectly possible to achieve cooperation between nations without having people you don’t elect making rules for you. As you point out EU member states have some degree of influence over decisions but again as you point out not everyone has the same influence. That seems to be an unfair way of doing it.
I don’t really think that is the big issue here. It’s not so much of giving an ultimatum as that it is what some part of mainly economists are expecting to happen. I’m not expecting them to be completely right, to be honest, simply because something like this hasn’t happened in recent history, but I doubt it would benefit either the EU or Great Britain, simply because such an event would destabilize both.
Then again, if given enough time both will reach some sort of stable relations again. The point is that people just tend to be impatient, and want to see some sort of result straight away. I don’t have much faith in such a thing. The democratic system is simply too bulky to be flexible enough to accommodate such rapid changes.
The thing is, the people in Brussels are elected by the people, be it indirectly. They are elected by the people elected by the people. So in the end we regular folk are still responsible for the situation to some degree.
When has the way of the world ever been fair? This is the actual world we’re talking about, not some power fantasy.
Oh, yes. But that would require sticking around during the tough times, and not just walking out now and trying to talk our way back in later. And as I pointed out, Britain currently has more influence than the average EU nation, and while our high population (3rd after Germany and France) and GDP (2nd) would support the current level of influence, if we left and tried to reenter, we would almost certainly lose a lot of that.
I think one of the reasons I personally have an issue was originally a misconception on my part when I used to think that the European Court of human rights and the EU were essentially the same organisation so every time a murderer or rapist is stopped from being sent back to their country because some EU judge says it would breach their human rights when the convicted had no care for the human rights of his /her victims.
Now however it’s more a matter of principle we didn’t choose to join the EU and we were all happy with how things were then Tony Blair just signs us up retires then gets a cushy job in the EU.
Whichever way I vote (it’s still a couple weeks so who knows I might read something that makes me change my mind but atm I’m in the leave camp) I will accept the result I just think we should have had a vote to join not be made to join then finally get a vote to leave or stay.
By Ultimatums I mean France saying if we leave they will send boats of migrants to our shore. Or Germany and Italy saying if we leave they’ll screw us in any trade negations.
With the elected in the UK if we make a mistake we can choose to vote them out in the next election. Where as those elected in Brussels we can’t affect them and the people who can will more than likely do what suits them not the people they are meant to represent.
I am not saying the world is always fair. God I know that I just have to see my sons grave and hear about some parent who has killed their child or some murderer is in a cushy cell. But democracy should be fair. I find it ironic that Germany tried to take over Europe twice through wars yet now they are one of the top 2 countries with the most influence.
Ps it’s nice to have a discussion regarding this which doesn’t devolve into name calling like it does in the media
Yeah, and given how every European nation except Belarus (and the Vatican, but that doesn’t count), but including places like Russia, Serbia, and Armenia, are members of the ECHR, I really don’t see us leaving that any time. Of course, anti-EU politicians and journalists will often talk about them as if they were the same, because they want people to react the way you did.