The other pronouns have similar meanings to ‘they’, and it’s okay to have multiple words with the same meaning.
For instance, English has an unusually large number of words describing light: glimmer, glisten, shine, shimmer, glow, sparkle, glitter, flicker, flare, glare, gleam, beam, twinkle, etc.
We don’t really need all these words, although they have subtle nuances.
Similarly, most of these new pronouns serve the same function as singular ‘they’. And that’s okay.
Socially, people that use similar pronouns get more or less grouped together. So if the group of people referring to themselves as ‘they’ seem different from you, you might use a different pronoun. So people would use whatever pronoun they feel like ‘fits’ them the best.
The only purpose of the pronouns is to make people feel comfortable. If that’s not a priority for you, then to you they are in fact meaningless. If that does matter to you, the (subtext) meaning is “I care about your feelings and support you in your identity.”
All those words for light have at least four separate meanings, and the ones that have the same meaning can be used interchangeably based on the speaker’s whim. Plus, if the way language generally seems to work is any indication, those words did at one point have unique meanings that they lost over time. That’s completely different from these pronouns which are chosen by someone who is most likely not even participating in the conversation and can only be known by previous experience since they are not actually describing anything perceptible by anyone else. Gender is already a confusing mess and I have to wonder how much this further complication actually helps people vs how much it hurts others. Not only that but being asked their pronouns can be dysphoric for binary trans people who are concerned about their ability to pass… Which adds a whole other layer of complication.
I rather someone ask what my pronouns are then arbitrarily decide what they are for me based upon how I look! A good deal of trans people (not all, obviously) understand that while expression is a part of identity, expression isn’t inherently equal to identity or pronouns. For example, there are gender-nonconforming people, he/him lesbians, she/her gay men, etc. In an ideal world, it would be commonplace to ask every person you meet what their pronouns are, regardless of what you “believe” their identity is.
As far as gender-neutral pronouns go, neopronouns don’t hurt people–the people who reject their use are the ones causing the harm. Anyone who chooses to use a gender-neutral pronoun is doing so because it’s true to who they are. In other words, the benefits of using that particular pronoun set outweigh the potential harm that can come from any ignorant or malicious act against them.
@Shoelip - the first post actually explains their meaning quite clearly and why those that use the pronouns use them.
These words are gender neutral and gender inclusive identifiers for an individual that was created in the interest of greater equality.
They as a gender neutral/inclusive singular identifier is still disputed and challenged by many – the article linked in the first post and the earlier discussion here shows this controversy.
The created pronouns seek to remove any historical ambiguity from being part of the discussion, and they are used as an identifier for an individual. There is no ambiguity here.
This is just plain false. Speaking with a person means they are participating in the conversation – and as I state above they describe the individual you are speaking to/about …
This is a straw man argument and I’m going to warn you here and now – you are on shaky ground as it is … this entire discussion is not talking about in-person interaction. It is explicitly stated to be dealing with forum community interaction and writing in CoG/HG/HC games.
And we are full circle as to why these pronouns were created … to help make a more ideal world a reality.
This. Honestly the entire ‘debate’ boils down to something like “you said your name is Jerry, but you don’t look like a Jerry to me, you look like a Tom. I find the fact that your name is Jerry to be weird and confusing, so I’m gonna go ahead and call you Tom, and if you say I can’t, I’m going to go to weird grammatically gymnastic lengths to avoid calling you your name directly.”
(Which actually happens to many trans people every day!) I just don’t understand why this is difficult. (I mean, I do, but…)
I reread the entire post just to make sure and no it most certainly doesn’t. It just shows a bunch of words and how to spell them properly in various forms (but not even how to pronounce them) and that’s it. No indication of what they mean. Which just makes them seem like a workaround for people’s hangups on singular they/them that only ends up making things even more complicated and difficult to understand for those not exposed to them from a young age.
The only times you refer to someone with gendered pronouns in English is when you aren’t talking to them. Talking about someone in the third person while they’re standing there is generally considered rude. Is it less rude to use their pronouns while doing that? Obviously, but it’s still rude in the first place so either way you’re likely being a jerk. You also completely skipped my actual point in that sentence… but I suppose that’s understandable considering that somehow all the quotes in the thread have apparently been deleted, making the entire conversation seem disjointed and nonsensical.
How is this a strawman and what rules am I violating that I deserve to be threatened like this? We can say “it’s just about forum interaction” but these things are complicated and confusing and as far as most people are concerned, new, so some people are going to be learning about them for the first time from here, and speaking from personal experience I bounced off these other words hard when I first encountered them. Here. It wasn’t until I had people somewhere else explain what NB actually was using singular “they” and how old its usage was that it actually clicked for me.
Except that we already have singular they, which is MUCH easier for people to adopt, and doesn’t add a bunch of new words people have to learn, making acceptance of NB identities THAT much more difficult for those who aren’t raised to take them for granted.
No it doesn’t. Because Jerry is a name, not a gender. A name doesn’t describe anything. It’s just a label to help identify individuals in a group without having to describe them. A gender describes specific things, and isn’t terribly accurate anyway so adding a bunch of new words for genders that don’t actually describe anything at all just makes things even more confusing. It’s a direct contradiction of some of the most effective defenses against transphobic arguments.
I feel like this is what causes people to talk circles around each other whenever this debate comes up. Personal pronouns don’t actually “describe” anything—they’re just substitutions for people’s names that grammatically designate case and number. The issue at hand is that they traditionally designate gender as well, and having only a binary option of she/he alienates some trans people. Hence, the rise of singular they. However, some nonbinary people feel as if their identity is not best represented by they/them, thus: neopronouns were invented.
Nobody can answer the question: what does this personal pronoun describe? Because there is no one answer. They’re personal to the individual. There isn’t a single pronoun set that corresponds to solely one gender identity.
You can make every excuse in the world for why you don’t want to use someone’s pronouns, but at the end of the day, if you know someone’s pronouns and you intentionally don’t use them, then it’s just straight up disrespectful and discriminatory. If you can’t pronounce them, look them up and find an audio of them, or ask how to pronounce them properly. If you have trouble remembering how to spell them, keep a guide on hand (like this one, for example) or write one out.
The reason Eiwynn is warning you (as is within their right as a moderator) that you’re on thin ice is because COG community guidelines require you to respect all members of the community. That includes not misgendering someone intentionally. If you aren’t able to put in a smidge of effort to treat every person here with a basic level of respect and kindness by using their pronouns, then don’t post on the forum. No one will be mad if you mess up a couple times on someone’s pronouns by accident, but there are issues when you intentionally misgender someone, whatever the reason.
I have to respectfully disagree with this. The pronouns you refer to have no ‘definition’ per se, but they do have meaning. By saying that all individuals who are not cis must use the word ‘they’ implies that all those distinct identities are inherently similar. Which is false.
Speaking from experience, you can have the same gender as another person but view that in a completely different way. So using the same pronoun as them can be uncomfortable to say the least. Being forced to is much worse.
These neo-pronouns solve the problem by encouraging others to use the pronouns that they think best fits their gender identity using the meaning that they prescribe to it.
You ignored both my original post and my reply to you. I am going to ask that you stop posting in this thread. It is obvious you are being obtuse for argument’s sake only and and I am not going to have this thread be derailed by your tomfoolery.
Let’s see. @Shoelip , I think perhaps Eiwynn is likely upset at percieved argumentativeness than your line of questioning. (Do correct me if I’m wrong) I agree that they/them already existing in English works just fine and is less confusing on a whole than a word someone is less likely to be familiar with. If I understand correctly, some of your confusion is about the need to subdivide nonbinary wordings rather than a unified terminology? And no context for what the subdivision is actually classifying? I’d be in perfect agreement with you there- there isn’t any context except in how to utilize the terminology within an English sentence structure and that the terminology is nonbinary. Why the multiple words, what do they mean? Who knows? Or at least it’s not provided as I can see. But the stressed point that I understand as being presented to you is that doing so is considered respect by those for whom such respect matters. It doesn’t, to everyone- it does, to some people. Asking what’s being classified by the terminology, what the difference is between say, a ve and a ze, is fair and valid and shouldn’t be brushed aside, but I think the approach in doing so may have been a little mishandled. Not as a criticism. Something which helped me understand the concept of gender on a whole, and the occasional sensitivity to it, is the idea of there being an external and an internal gender. In a similar way as one might consider a body and soul. As to what defines an internal gender, …individualism, best I can understand it. For some people the perception of this matters as much as physical appearance would for some people. Not being someone to whom such a perception matters greatly, I don’t really know why. Probably differs from person to person.
Having the right kind of explanation can be important, understanding some more base concepts to build upon. It’s a process, and as a thought I think that everyone should be aware people have to learn at their own pace and it can be frustrating. Personal recommendation would be to apologize to Eiwynn if you feel up to it and hopefully Eiwynn will be forgiving- you don’t deserve to be cut off from learning because of frustration, but there’s also a request for a sort of respect which can be at first difficult to see is being breached in manner of inquery.
So let me get this straight. If i talk to anyone i didnt know before i should ask them if they prefer being called, he, she, it, they, xie, zie, fie or whatever else?
Why cant they, xie, she, he, zie, just correct me if I use the “wrong” pronoun.
Dont misunderstand me, i think it is important to call a trans person by the pronoun of their preferred sex, but to expect me to ask someone if they prefer being called some pronoun like xie is unrealistic imo. Sure if they told me that is their preferred pronoun then i will try to use it for them but probably will forget sometimes because xie and zie arent really common words and getting insulted over it just plays into the card of right wingers who claim we get upset over anything.
Of course call a trans men with the pronoun “she” is a dick move if the person should know better. I would never call someone xie or zie without knowing they want to be called like that, those sound for me like pronouns you would use for aliens in sci fi books and until now i thought they actually would be used as an insult because of that.
On a long term basis I would prefer that he/she just got lost and everyone was they, it would make learning other languages easier. And lets face it, if I refer to a person why should I make clear what gender I think fits? I imagine everything would be easier that way, because everyone would be included and everyone would be on the same level. That would be nice, at least I think so^^
In an ideal world or in a community of this nature, it is preferred that you take the initiative and try to find out what pronoun they use for themselves. Most of the time, if a person prefers one set of pronouns over another, they will indicate that preference in their forum banner.
In general, unless you take the time to see if a person has a preference they’d like used, and there is a mistake made… no one will fault you for that usage.
If a person does take the time and effort to inform you of their preference, that is when the rest of the community would expect you to step forward and attempt to use those pronouns when applicable.
I mean yeah, at the end of the day it just comes down to common courtesy. If some mistake is made, just apologize and go on with things. If someone doesn’t let it go, they’re being a dick about it. Reasonable people are reasonable and try to get along.
I get what you mean, but i think it is a bit much to always need to preface every message with someone I dont know with “what pronoun do you use?”, if someone cares that much about the pronouns that are used for them I think its better if they just corrected me for using a wrong word.
In the end I think we should look at the whole content of the message to see what they meant and whether they tried to be insulting and less about the pronoun. People can be very insulting and still use the right pronoun just like they can be respectful and use the wrong pronoun.
Anyways its probably easy for me to say as a cisgender guy and if it is that important for many non-cisgender people to be called by different pronouns I will try my best in the future. Just dont assume i mean to be disrespectful just because I dont know words like xie or zie.
No, I don’t think you get what I mean – here is why:
Instead of taking a second or two to check their forum banner and seeing if there is a gender preference listed (which seems like a common courtesy to me), you either want them to:
use their mental spoons confronting a potentially hostile antagonist or
to sit there and take the feelings of being disrespected, invalidated, dismissed, alienated or dysphoric
(often all of these).
You are demanding that these individuals spend their time, effort and energy correcting you. This is the crux of the matter – they spend enormous amounts of time, effort and energy just defending their right to exist as they are, that when they come to this community, a safe place for them, the last thing they want to do is spend what little time, effort and energy they have left correcting, educating or even defending themselves to people here.
No one assumes this; educating everyone about gender-neutral pronouns is exactly what this thread and its discussion is attempting to do.
Just trying to hold this discussion this past eight days has exhausted me and I’m not dealing with this every day like many of these individuals are.
