letting elly go is the same as sending her or do you think thalia would risk losing one of her best resources if she didn’t care one bit about the lives of the arcadeans and are you forgetting that the nobles only sent the mage team because a Noble reported the situation that turned out to be the one that caused everything and they only sent a healer to contain a plague.
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Its war economy and survival from a nation that is supposed to be wiped out. Smart planning
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Nonsense.
Sending Eli means she cared enough to do something about it.
Letting Eli go means she didn’t care enough to stop her.
And when Eli wasn’t there and the plague came back, what was Tahlia shown doing?
Oh that’s right the game gives no indication that she did a single thing about it because Eli wasn’t there to volunteer again.
The exact same thing, that’s a laugh.
And no I’m forgetting nothing, I didn’t mention it because it’s not relevant. Exactly what difference do you imagine it makes? How does the Baron’s conspiracy make Leon, Slaine, and Ilya oppressors who deserve to die for their treatment of Arcadians when they have in fact been shown to care more about Arcadian lives than Tahlia?
And I’ve already covered this, they didn’t send one healer, they sent two princes, a healer, and a magical prodigy, which is in fact four more people than Tahlia sent.
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Since Param vastly outnumbers Arcadia with the amount of things they can spare they didn’t really care if it was just 4 people. Eli is also a prodigy. Tahlia didn’t excatly send them but letting go of your best healer is def something.
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two useless princes in a situation like that, a mage that dont know theurgy so yeah only one healer to contain a plague and they didnt even sent the best healer they had even when she is available in the capital.
When i said ilya and saine deserve to die? they are the only good people in that bunch. Leon doesn’t count since he decided to kill me the first problem I presented and I realized that his word is worth nothing when he said he would trust me and he didn’t.
Letting eli go means she does care atleast a bit she is the best healer she have in her assets we know this since she is the only one that can heal us after using our phantasm.
And like you said the game gives no indication what tahlia was doing or why Eli was not there to volunteer even if tahlia would not care eli would so we dont know what was happening on their end
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Also our team was sent to relieve a single village and to find out more about the decease. Sending more people was an option, if we decided it was necessary - so Param was ready to put in even more effort, while Tahlia was Tahlia.
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It does seem sort of like, according to what we know, Eli by themself were able to cure everyone last time there was a plague, while both the Mage and Ilya together can usually only save half of the village’s population. Which… Says something about Eli’s arcana, I think!
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Seeing all of the endless debates about the same subject just further my MC’s belief that Arcadians and Params are just better off with the top players dead. I know for sure Eli won’t stop it but I’d probably spare Saine and Ilya too since they didn’t really do anything bad in my point of view.
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Isn’t that two thirds then?
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I meant that they are the only two good nobles of the lot in param that we have seen not just from the white fangs party.
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I’m well aware that both sides have their faults but at least with param it was the mage’s choice. At the end of the day, we were revived without our consent (I know it would be hard to actually consent since we’re dead but shut up) ,were forced to bend the knee and kill people all while being collared, and if we refuse we not only will perish but in the most excruciating way imaginable I would think (the forces of the world ripping us apart to take back our soul). At least Leon pitied is enough to stuff extra kindling under the fire for us to die before the fire would kill us.
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A friendly reminder: death from suffocation is also painful. Not to mention the smoke would sting MC’s eyes and burn their lungs.
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What do you mean collared? I thought that the collar that sister put on us had disappeared after resurrecting i didnt see any mention of it in book 2? and im sure leon didnt did it for pity but for ilya and saine probably he even punched me in the dungeon so yeah he definitely didn’t do it for the mage but who know
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I am sorry, but the concept of “resurrection by consent” is so fucking funny to me.
Arcadia and Param
Am I biased? Yes, but so are you.
You can’t just headcanon something into this debate, make the faction/character you are against look worse, and call it a day. I am on Arcadia side, but that doesn’t mean I should say shit like “uhmm actually, Jullius ate arcadian babies and is literally the devil himself” because Param did very little for arcadians.
Also the whole Tahlia debate was MEANT to be subjectional, you are either against her from the start because she treats you like a slave OR you first opinion of her is “yeah I can work with that” and she treats you like a normal person and even patreon spoilers meaning people’s opinion on her can vary big time. Meaning you can’t really argue points for one side or another, because first introduction is very important.
And you can say “Hey, but she planned to use the collar on you if you planned to run away, so she is very evil” and for that I have two points
1.This is meta talk. My mage never experienced anything like that so for them, Tahlia resurrected them in exchange for work. (I am not saying that your point is invalid, it’s just that people’s opinion on her vary like crazy, only because of that first interaction with her.
2. You are Tahlia. You spent an entire year to resurrect this one person. You give them your 75% charisma speech on why they should join you. They decline.
The point is, if you were in Tahlia shoes, you would probably also put a collar on that person.
This is a war. People need to do rational and pragmatic decisions to win a war. That’s just how things are. Is enslavement morally ambiguous? Yes, but something tells me 80% of this community would also do that because “I am roleplaying as cruel and pragmatic person, meaning it’s okay”, so I can’t say anything about it.
The thing is, its too early for calling names and deciding who is 100% evil with no redeeming qualities. Lets just wait for demo’s update, and then continue on this debate with new information we will probably have.
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Might of mixed it up but it was definitely ment more as a metaphysical leash in the sense of “anything outside this area is pain and suffering” and on the making stuff up part idk. The extra kindling was definitely written and it doesn’t matter if your all buddy buddy with Thalia. You might not be there against your will but you have no choice. I’m saying Leon’s (cookout and cooking hobbies aside) side was the mage’s choice. You only have the illusion of choice with Thalia. (And ya, I’m hella biased, won’t argue that)
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one part of how i played my mc in book 1 was that they particularly didn’t care about param as a country. they were in the right to defend themselves from annexation, sure, but my mc became a retainer bc the white fangs (and esp leon!) were the best friends they ever had, and they’d have gone to the ends of the world for them. i think it was pretty crushing to find out leon really didn’t return that, and they probably would have done things differently if they’d have known where they would end up.
that’s just my playthrough, but i think its easy to see why some mcs would appreciate the fundamental honesty of tahlia at least straight up telling you “i brought you back, and now i need you to do something for me, and i can’t let you go running off with critical state secrets” as opposed to leon being somewhat flakey.
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Unless I’m wrong, I don’t remember that the position of retainer that Leo gave us was our decision and being in that position forces us to follow the king’s orders. We had to use the phantasm throughout the war to the point of almost dying just so that Leon wouldn’t. believed in us a little at the moment of truth. I don’t know which is worse and about the illusion of choice you could say the same with leon since in the end it doesn’t matter what we do he kills us If the choices we make influence tahlia or no we will have to wait for more updates to decide that.
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While I definitely think its a more nuanced topic, its more likely Tahlias charisma was 50% WITH her powers assisting her.
I cant speak to every mage but suffice to say freedom is at least somewhere in most of their value systems, especially considering their relative lack of childhood and destruction of their family. Having someone holding the key to their happiness didnt work all that well for Mireil, but the MC more or less leapt at the opportunity to become a vassal for Leon for whatever reason.
It tells us, and Tahlia, that theres a threshold somewhere for whats acceptable. When she brings us back, I guarantee you her perception was that our need for vengeance would be greater than our other values.
What I find funny is that if its not enough, the MC can easily challenge that, giving Tahlia precious info to narrow down that cooperative threshold. If vengeance doesnt work, what about bloodline? If bloodline is irrelevant, what of justice? An MC that desires freedom away from the countries I dont think shes capable of understanding. She waits to bring up Eli until after we potentially affirm our lack of loyalty, something that should be a rather obvious sign that loosening the reins would instill a better sense of duty.
The scene can go several ways, but a mage that goes out of her way to openly challenge her in good faith isnt a seditionist and her handling of them is tyrranical at best.
Correct me if I’m wrong but this is all before Eli even gets brought up. By the time she guarantees our temporary help, she has a pretty full picture of who we are, and if we simply want peace or to be away from this life, she not only threatens us, she permanently taints the tool she so desperately wanted.
And its no one’s fault but her own.
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I have three mages for the game so far, and everything about how you view on the morals in the game can change depending on the character you’re playing, I think!
I can sympathize with my character who doesn’t want to be in Arcadia, and who genuinely dislikes Tahlia as both a leader and as a symbol of their now lost freedom. I can also sympathize with my character who thinks their true home was in Arcadia all along, and who would have to be dragged away screaming from the place if anyone in Param wanted them back.
The mage’s morals also sort of play into how your view of the factions will change, I think! Will your mage always value their loved ones, or will they value the many? Do they actually value themself the most and view everyone else as a tool, despite having disarmed the Saintess bomb at large risk to themself?
So I think it’s less a question of “Who’s right and who’s wrong?” and more “Who does your main character think is right and wrong? What will they do to be in the right?”
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I 100% agree with you.
The thing about this debate is that there is no right or wrong answer. Due to mage’s upbringing and their death, the reader can have their own opinion on what and how their Mage suppose to do.
Which is why I think there is no real point to these arguments outside of having a discussion, simply because you can’t really convince someone else on what their Mage should do and what kind of opinion they should have, because my Mage and your Mage can be completely different people.
For example, My mage IS clouded with thoughts of vengeance, meaning Tahlia didn’t really need to do anything to make him join her. For him, Tahlia is a person who gave him a second chance in life, and also gives a chance in revenge. every morally ambiguous thing that Tahlia does, my Mage would either ignore or try to rationalize, because for him, they are simply means to an end.
Your Mage can have an entire different point of view and see things completely different. Luckily, this game allows for that.
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