Gender-locking ROs, gender flipping, and importance of gender in relationships

On a completely unrelated note. All this talk about RO’s actually inspired me, and now there are five RO’s in my unofficial WIP instead of four.

So good discussion everybody.:grinning:

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Oh, that changes everything. Species is more important than gender in terms of RO. In Choice of the Dragon, I didn’t feel there was a difference between genders because a dragon is a dragon. Creature are not bound by human standards and have a more gender neutral air about them sometimes. Although, this does complicate the matting process.

You don’t have to focus on gender discrimination in your story if it’s not present in your game world or important, but gender will impact how the audience sees the RO.

On the malleability of characters, I think it’s kind of weird that a NPC joins the same club as you, likes everything you like just because you like it, and basically has no character of its own and is basically like a tumor attached to you and sucking out all of your character to build its own. :space_invader: . There was a crack dating game on itch.io that I never finished that placed you in the RO’s role and this other character was trying to pursue you. I don’t mind a dynamic character like the Arthor in Guenevere can change his personality slowly overtime, but it’s over years and years and is a little more realistic.

I also find it odd why a character who seems like they would not be interested in the MC tries to pursue MC. They seem fake and sketchy. Like Mitra in Nusantara that wanted a traditional woman who cooks and cleans and gives birth numerous times which is definitely not my MC. Or like in Taarradhin (bad game, I would not recommend) where the slave guy likes MC When the other slave girl is much better than MC, and it makes him seem like a gold digger just after MC’s wealth. Trash from Aloners is mean to MC for no reason and when MC decides to leave him, he suddenly wants to be nice probably only because he knows he’s lost the upper hand and he realizes we’d be good child producing fodder or something. I thought this was well done in Fool’s Helper with the business man. He had a logical and consistent reason for choosing MC over the other lady. MC accepted him quirks and all and he didn’t have to pretend to be something he’s not to please MC.

Since I’m getting a little off the gender topic, I’ll leave you with this video about 36 questions to make you fall in love (1-3, 8-10, and 14:18-16:50 minutes). The point is Zach platonicly loves his best friend, but they can’t be romantically in love because they’re both straight and the wrong gender for each other. However if Keith was somehow able to be gender switched to a female, that would have changed how their relationship developed (He’s kind of evasive and scared to get hurt around those he romantically likes as seen in the first segment).

What I’d thought of was a shape-shifting, genderqueer romantic option, who first appears to you as your preferred gender. They look exactly as you want them to look. Very much like Black Magic in Heroes Rise, or really most of the romantic options.

The main difference being, this is a character choosing, or being forced to conform to your ideals, happening within the story as opposed to a game mechanic.

Similar to: “Xavin had first appeared to the Runaways, taking on the form of a black male, but changed into a black female just for the sake of Karolina Dean, a lesbian whom she was to marry.”

Or playing along the ideas of the story of Ragnelle. Ragnelle’s from Arthurian legend, who has the opportunity to appear beautiful by day, loathesome by night, or the opposite, and she asks Gawain to choose which. I had wondered about a character who might ask you to pick if they were male or female in a similar fashion.

Or what if it’s the protagonist that has the opportunity to choose their gender presentation instead and keep changing it as they please. Where all the NPCs have static sexualities, and the choice of gender is something you make, in character. (I did love Seven Winds and how it allowed you to choose your gender presentation and change it.)

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I’m going to stop you right there. First off: Tamara in Nusantara is an already-defined character, not a malleable MC. Even the pseudo-minigame scenes are actually hard-coded.

Secondly, Asih teaches her to cook and sew and Mitra will only show an interest in you over the other options if you a) show interest in children (main introduction) b) Spend more time with him then other single men (you’re kind of made to if everyone else is dead) c) show preference for his safety over that of other men (Reksa route) or d) everyone else is dead and the game doesn’t have a bad ending, and even then Tamara says to think about it and can actually just leave him. Plus they have the entire “women actually do fight” talk, and Yuda definitely makes reference to her stubbornness and persistence as being an actually desirable trait for Mitra not only personally but also good as a chief’s wife, which is made passing reference to in the “drawing” scene.

In Taarradhin, remember that these people are slaves, and thusly did not know that it was possible that they could be married as free people and “get MC’s wealth)”. Again, the MC is also defined in that game: Neqtia has already a personality and background as well as limited choices to show that she is not you nor your perception of her.

I love this idea. Could be played very interestingly and opens up a lot of personal development too! Cool!

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How would this work for people who aren’t attracted to a person’s physical features? I kind of dislike a game telling me I’m attracted to a person when I don’t even know them. I personally wouldn’t want to force a character to be a certain gender if they asked me to choose for them; I’d probably pass on that question.
I probably wouldn’t change my gender in game (when I can look through the code) just to get a RO unless it’s something like all the first born males/ females are getting killed or a draft or something. How do we know everyone’s sexualities? Is it like that episode on Family Guy were Brian was dating a blind girl and lied to make himself seem better and when she found out about it, he tried it again with a different accent so she wouldn’t know except we use shapeshifting (if we actually do have a preferred gender for ourselves)and our mark may not be blind or vice versa if the RO can shift.

A RO reacting to bring forced to be a preferred gender for straight/gay MC or nonbinary for MC’s that don’t care seems to major to just have that character as a side character and like the plot or at least a branch would have to revolve around this issue.

@Laguz
I somehow managed to simultaneously get Rama and Mitra’s route on my first play through and Rama was still alive so I don’t remember having too many scenes with Mitra besides the random kiss scene when I was trying to date his best friend :confounded: and the ending because I was trying to go on Rama’s route, but I vaguely remember Mitra being interested in all the routes and Tamara failing at cooking fish (at least on Reksa’s route). It’s cannon that Tamara initially at least doesn’t cook.

In Taaraadhin, the cannon MC knows pretty much nothing about the slaves or their culture. I personally think the slave girl was prettier than the MC because they were both comparable and similarly skinny (so it couldn’t have been that he had a preference for curvier girls) and the slaves definitely had similar backgrounds and more in common. The romance just doesn’t make sense to me.

This is off topic.

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You are wrong in that
About if a straight play this there is no homosexual representation

It is heterophobic, I am hetero and all of you here know how I play and romance all types of romances whatever genre or non binary. Generalized about Heterosexual people is not good either.
First time in my life I saw written Heterophobic lol, Probably because heterosexual was always the default.

Also If they want play all characters heterosexual in their OWN game where is the problem? Same if you want play with all gays or a non binary with all non binary. IT IS THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE. I personally love change and experience the difference between all options but it is just me I am not my Character. so I experience with different types and genders

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there’s no such thing as heterophobia lmao
just a thing made up by sad straights to mean “wah, 64 straight protagonists this year? last year i had 65!”

the problem is its fucking boring

(and also contributing to queer erasure and alienation in the media)

I want people to offer a reason to play as a different gender or sexuality. I loved how so many people wanted to play as nb to romance the prince in Versus. I love how people made male characters to romance Dorian or female to romance Alistair in dragon age.

I love patches that make straight characters bi or gay. I don’t like it when straights make a patch to make a gay character bi or straight, or even a bi character straight. That’s erasure. There’s a difference here in representation and humanisation and that’s the main thing.

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Well I played Tali as woman patch because It was real Bioware content EA censored tali as Lesbian when all dialogue and scenes where on the disc. Even in Shadow broker dlc Tali intel she said she was in love Mara . I wouldn’t NEVER CHANGE A GAME FOR DOING THE CHANGE AGAINST THE author plans Is insulting

I have to agree with Mara regarding “no homosexual representation” if a straight player can choose the orientation of romanceable NPCs. I feel quite certain that some straight players, when given the opportunity to choose orientation of NPCs, choose a homosexual romance possibility.

One can’t ensure it, thus ensuring representation, and I think that’s the larger point at stake here. But the minor point under discussion, Mara and I, at least, serve as evidence that it isn’t true that there must be no homosexual representation.

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Ashley was also initially meant to be bi, and Kaiden from the first game (not just 3), I wouldn’t put it past Bioware.

I would if the author’s plans are bloody disgusting :)))))))

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The player side of me wants every ounce of customization possible. I want a dozen ROs, all selectable genders, with unique personalities that change as I play to fit my story.

The writer side wants to finish a game, create words that many people can enjoy, and make compelling romantic options. I realize I only have so much time and creative energy to accomplish this.

There’s a tug-of-war between the two sides.

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I don’t think I’d ever actually explicitly tell a reader that they’re attracted to someone, unless magical forced attraction is involved. Actually, that’s another theme I’d likely play with. Magical forced attraction to someone whose appearance you determine (or possibly has a default attractive appearance in the gender of your choosing if you don’t want to specify anything more on their appearance). Admittedly if you let people type in their appearance, or what they look like, you’d end up with people inputting silly things, like they do for Black Magic. I suppose that’s on them though.

But usually, I’d say sure you can describe them as being handsome/beautiful/sexy or whatnot, but you let the player choose how they respond to that. If you’re good enough at writing, you don’t need to force emotions you should be able to conjure them with words.

And yeah, questions, questions, it’s mostly just musing on themes, and so many of your interesting questions are getting added to the list. That would be unethical, wouldn’t it, having a dating sim where you can date a character, and if you fail to woo them, just switch your appearance, pretend to be someone else, and try again making use of the information you previously picked up.

Or like Groundhog Day, or 50 first dates. Or hmm there’s this time travel short https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBkBS4O3yvY

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I really really want to say something about that comment but I am absolutely certain it would devolve into an argument.

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It’s not heterophobia. It’s wanting to see yourself represented in games.

Homosexual/Bisexual representation is important. You can’t really say a game’s inclusive if it allows heterosexual playthroughs to skip any and all queer content, never so much as glimpsing a gay character least their delicate sensibilities be offended. Yet this is what is constantly offered.

If the only gay characters in a game are gender-flippable romantic interests then it’s fully possible to play a game with absolutely no gay content. (The same’s almost never true, that games exist with absolutely no heterosexual characters). This isn’t inclusive. Sure it’s catering to gay players, but it’s missing a lot in terms of representation.

In Dragon Age 2, straight players were in huge uproar that Anders hits on male characters, regardless of whether or not they’re attracted to men. They found it extremely uncomfortable. It’s just that general attitude of it’s okay to have same-sex attracted characters, as long as it’s possible to ignore them, which is only just slightly more tolerant than games shouldn’t have GBLTQ characters at all.

It’s so frustrating to be shoved in a box, told you shouldn’t exist, that you shouldn’t matter, that children and heterosexual gamers should be protected from your very existence and able to opt out.

It’s also frequently the case that same-sex attraction will be allowed, but only if it’s women. Straight men find lesbian relationships, far more acceptable than that of gay men.

You’ll find stuff like in Heroes Rise, all Black Magic’s past relationships are with women.

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I think Heterophobia exists If You say ALL HETEROSEXUAL WILL SKIP OTHER OPTIONS CONTENT. It is offensive, I am heterosexual and always choose I don’t mind gender or mixture it. I believe in all genre spectrum representation and praise Prince only nb romance in the beta. If you assume all hetero are vigotry racist well heterophobia exist.

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Well, no. Let’s say there are three ROs, all of whom change to fit the orientation of the player. If I play, they’re all gay guys; if a straight man plays, they’re all straight women. True, they could be bi, but unless previous romances are mentioned, it’s generally not brought up. Consequently, the gay representation comes entirely from minor characters, when it does come.

I do try to be as unbiased as possible, although I know I do have trouble in this particular area. But I really don’t think I said anything derogatory of straight people, and I didn’t mean to imply that you were all a homogeneous mass or anything like that. I also feel that the majority of straight people wouldn’t be willing to try gay romance, as you and @Gower are, Mara (although, true, that’s just my assumption).

If we don’t exist in games (or films, or books), that’s not good. Representation normalises us. It shows bigoted straights that we’re really just like them; it shows closeted teens that there are people like them in the world. It’s not just for self-glorification.

You see, that’s something I don’t like doing. Because then I wouldn’t really be playing as a woman, I’d be playing as a transgender man (I hope that’s not offensive, but that’s how I’ve always viewed it).

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im just finding this so funny right now

guess in how many games you’re given the option to be gay, let alone get the same bonuses that straights have! hoo! no, we have to edit the game code if we want that, kids! it’s so slim. you want a purely het game? go outside, pick up one from the store

that’s offensive, sorry

too bad my d00d, whatever. thanks for the comment that didn’t actually do anything or contribute except vaguely accuse me but -shruggo-

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No it doesn’t. The “heterophobia” you’re describing results in hurt feelings, wounded pride. And you know it sucks to have your feelings hurt but guess what? You do not get murdered for being Straight. You do not get tortured in prison for being Straight. You do not bashed on a train for being Straight. You do not get forced into psychological torture regimes (aka “conversion therapy”) for being Straight. I’m sorry that your feelings are hurt, I am, but heterophobia is about as real reverse-misogyny.

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I suffered a rape attempt with twelve years I suffer and still suffering insults because I have big breasts. And I am a woman who had to suffering the bullshit a woman cannot do that.

Noone should be offended because her his they sexual reality NO ONE.

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fun fact: gay folks and trans folks are WAY more likely to experience rape - “corrective rape”

fake ass “heterophobia” isnt the reason you were raped. being straight wasn’t the reason you were raped. being a woman might have played a part in it, misogyny being what it is, but primarily rape is a power thing.

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